I hate to rain on your (already rainy) parade, but most "third world" wages are double or triple what the US wages are. In fact, US pilots are getting a bad wrap on the int'l contracts for coming in and undercutting the locals (third world as you put it). It's not bad enough they ruined the US Airline industry, now they want to ruin it for the rest of the world too...

Bad,

Good point.

Pilots don't buy airplanes.

We will see
 

Currently third world countries are trying to ramp up their production of pilots and have to offer high wages to attract western pilots in the mean time. Once they develop their own source of cheaply trained and abundant flight crews then I predict that the high wages are going to plunge as they are able to hire locals instead.

I offer as an example the international shipping fleet. At one time those big ships were maned by highly paid western crews. Now it is all third world people who will take a lot of abuse and get paid peanuts because in their home countries their wages go much farther and so they are happy.

In 10 to 15 years 747-400 crews could fly into JFK from New Deli and then stay with the plane for a month before going home at half the wages that a US pilot would want/need.

Skyhigh

Problem is that will never happen. With VERY few exceptions, most countries HIGHLY restrict GA, and the low price seen in the US, Canada and VERY few other places is that the GA market is supported by the hobbiest crowd.

The only way the US and Canada do is that there is 100 years of general aviation aircraft/pilots/infrastructure to support relatively low cost training.

You can't get 10 172s in India and run a training school and call it "low cost" when you're paying $50 for a mandatory flight plan, $10 a landing and $5/liter for Avgas. You NEED the recreational pilots to drive down the costs of operations.

Plus if the ATP requirement comes to pass for 121 operations, that means the MPL is effectively dead in the US.

Nu

If there is A will.
 

If we have learned nothing from changes in our own aviation system then we at least should acknowledge that if there is a will there is a way. Business and governments will move mountains if it means gaining an advantage.

Third world countries are advancing quickly. CFI jobs are beginning to pop up internationally. They will have their own training fleets and floods of university trained pilots who are dedicated, obedient and speak perfect English.

Imagine a future where ex-military UAV pilots sit in a control room and manage five flights at a time who are crewed by outsourced overseas pilots who come to the US to fly here under free flight and sit there motionless for hours upon hours while being observed by live video feed back to headquarters in a mostly automated and ground controlled system.

Chilling but it could happen. I don't see why it will not.

Skyhigh

Sky, how is it you would onl be making 72k as a Horizon CA? Granted I pick up as much Advertised trips as I can, and straight pick up (when we had no furloughs) and I was able to make $50,000.00 before taxes (including per diem) at Expressjet as a 3rd yr F/O @ a payrate of $34.46 an hour?

I had to sacrifice like work over my vacation but I am sure it wouldn't require that much work to make 80k as a Horizon CA with a good QOL?


Best advice I can give anyone is marry a rich women.............

Horizon is not that great.
Unpaid hanger pick up and drop offs at the start and end of trips.
No block or better.
Back to back 3 day trips.
Q 400 pays less but seats more and the pilots who fly it work more. I know you get what you can hold but the payrate is still there.

$72K would be guarantee for an 11 year Q400 captain. $90/hr x 80 hour guarantee x 10 bid periods a year.

A 9 year CRJ captain would be $72,800 a year.

The main reason it probably won't happen (I won't say that it can't happen...) is that in a lot of these "3rd world" countries, the locals make more than we (the ex-pats) do. They can train as many people as they want, and even if they do manage to come up with all the qualified bodies to fill the seats, they'll have to pay them more than they pay the ex-pats. So, not any great concern about third world pilots flying all the int'l stuff. (Why would they pay extra thus making lower profits???). The unfortunate reality is that we (Americans) have become the cheap labor throughout the world...

For starters
 

Horizon Air has a five week bid period that translates into 10 bid periods per year. If you try and use a 12 bid periods per year to calculate annual income then you would be over estimating.

In addition, I did not and never would sell my days off and vacations to the company. I did what was expected from me and went home. Also I do not count per diem as pay. It is compensation for being on the road. Using it as additional income is a false method.


Skyhigh

Not the case where I'm at (not in the sand pit). The locals get screwed good.

Skyhigh,

For the record, here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the U.S. Granted, not all airline pilots make this as an average, nor does the list address how long it takes to be making this amount. However, you might think harder about your constant discouragement of people wanting to become commercial pilots. This list came directly from the Careerbuilder.com website.


Top Paying Jobs Overall

# Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000
# Aircraft pilots -- $133,500
# Chief executives -- $116,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000
# Lawyers and judges -- $99,800
# Dentists -- $90,000
# Pharmacists -- $85,500
# Management analysts -- $84,700
# Computer and information system managers -- $83,000
# Financial analysts, managers and advisors -- $84,000
# Marketing and sales managers -- $80,000
# Education administrators -- $80,000


Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:

Top Paying Jobs That Do Not Require a High School Degree
These jobs tend to require substantial on-the-job training and work experience rather than formal education and schooling:

# Industrial production managers -- $36,000
# Bailiffs, correctional officers and jailers -- $36,400
# Drafters -- $36,000
# Construction manager -- $33,600
# Electricians -- $31,900


Top Paying Jobs for High School Graduates
These occupations emphasize work experience and on-the-job training rather than formal education:

# Computer software engineers -- $58,900
# Computer/information systems managers -- $56,400
# Computer programmers -- $55,000
# Network systems and data communications analysts -- $49,000
# General and operations managers -- $48,000
# Database, network and computer systems administrators -- $48,000


Top Paying Jobs for a Two-Year College Degree
The following jobs tend to be technical in nature, emphasizing skills developed on the job as well as job-specific training and certifications:

# Healthcare practitioners -- $66,000
# Business analysts -- $58,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $57,000
# Mechanical engineers -- $56,800
# General and operations managers -- $54,000
# Computer and information systems managers -- $50,400

Yes, my brother-in-law is an degrees engineer and architect, and is licensed in both. He makes 45K a year with two post graduate degrees and two licenses. Only way he will top 100K is to own the company. Luck you him my sis is a litigation attorney and he can live quite well on his wage.

Exactly--nor does it define what it considers an airline pilot. An average pf $133,000 lends me to believe it's only pilots at major airlines. Maybe regionals thrown in. It says nothing about the indentured servants who work flying small freight, air taxi, check haulers, CFIs, banner tows, etc.

My dentist friend more than doubles my income--and as a Captain for a major I'm one of the highest paid pilots in the industry. Of course, he owns his business--but had I put in the same effort drilling teeth as I've done getting to where I am--I'd be in the same boat. Plus, I wouldn't have had to work weekends and be gone for many family events. I'd make a comment about Dental Tech's vs. FAs but that would just piling on

Numbers
 

Jetjok,

I wish that were the case. Those numbers are highly suspect and do not explain how they are derived. Often they only consider the "captain" as being a "pilot" and leave out the first officers entirely. And as everyone here knows the FOs make up 48% of airline pilots. If you were only to consider major airline captain wages then that number makes sense. However if you were to add in every pilot from CFI to UPS captains then the average is much much lower.

Additionally as the current generation of pilots move on future ones will have a hard time coming even close to what former pilots earned. When addressing new prospective pilots it is key to consider the earning potential over next 40 years. Their prospects are not so rosy. One time I found a number at a government labor web site that suggested that 30K was the national average for all commercial pilots. I will try and find that site again for you.

In any case wages, benefits and working conditions for airline pilots are falling. Others here have mentioned that in 1978 a USAir 737 captain made the equivalent of 420K and the FO made 250K. In addition they worked much less and had a better benefits package overall. Currently USAir pilots make around 30% of what they use to. The story is similar throughout the industry. A few are able to top 100K after many years of risk and sacrifice. However the profession is only a shadow of what it once was and still has a long way to go before reaching bottom.

Another thing to consider is quality of life, overall earning potential and benefits. A mailman has the future potential of earning more than most airline pilots when you consider that they can start with just a high school diploma at 18, make a good wage from the beginning, do not have to move all the time and do not have to fund their own retirements. They can buy a house much sooner and earn a good wage for the cost of entry. A typical airline pilot in comparison has to invest a small fortune to get educated and trained only then to suffer for possibly decades of low wages and furloughs before finally blasting through 100K only to have the government take much of the the excesses in taxes. A better plan is to make 50K from the beginning and slowly creep up over the years.

Skyhigh

Can I sell you my ocean front property in Nevada?

But.......

Skyhigh I am confused now. In previous posts you have claimed to have climbed to the top of the mountain as far as the aviation was concerned and when you got there it was empty. Is a start up LCC the top of mountain? I don't get it.:confused:

Is there a chance that you are being less than honest in some of your posts?

Top of the ladder
 

A LCC is not the top of the mountain in regards to pay and status. I suppose that I meant that I made it to "the top of the ladder" in so much as that I was flying a larger jet that others coveted.

I was there and did that stuff. If you want at our next opportunity you could send me a PM and I could arrange pick you up at the nearest airport. We could have lunch. I could show you the sights and I also could bring my logbooks and photos. It would be fun.

Maybe you could tell me what the magic bullet is for getting into a legacy?

In any case I am so glad that you are paying such close attention to my posts. :)

Skyhigh

# Chief executives -- $116,000

As in CEO of companies. I guess that's just the base cash pay and does not count the guaranteed bonuses.

Faith, luck, timing, networking, and the ability to execute under pressure (check rides and interviews...) all play a part in successful aviation career.

It is not for everyone. DBTownley had a dream job at a major...but it turns out it wasn't his dream. I helped a guy leave John Travolta's pilot stable to join SWA...left a great corporate gig to sit reserve as a commuter. Another guy I know left working for Larry Ellison--where he had the key to the store to include some L-39s...to join an airline. If we all wanted the same thing it would be a miserable world. There isn't a "right" career path; there is only the path that is right for you.

One thing that folks forget is everything has a price. I flew fighters in the AF for many years before joining the airlines. The cost was a lot of work, time away from family, some increased risk, and the loss of a few friends. I also have met a lot of guys 5-10 years younger than me from ASA, Exp jet, etc that got here earlier...and some are even captains. I've seen guys junior to me in their 50s that came here from US Air. There are goods and bads to the choices we make, but in this industry there are so many "X" factor unknowns it makes choosing a course a very difficult proposition. Some guys jumped from the military before me--got furloughed at DAL, AAL, and UAL, and came back in via the ANG. Guys who stayed in to 20 in my peer group left the AF to find there were basically zero jobs in aviation at the moment...and now they are stuck wondering if they'll ever get to fly again for a living.

I understand that when I go into a casino the odds are on the house. But I still like to gamble...because it’s fun and sometimes you win. Aviation is like that, but so far I've seen the way to beat the odds is have a little faith, follow your heart, marry the right person, and work like hell when you get the chance. I know there are a lot of losers in this game, but don't forget that there are guys who went to med school to be surgeons that ended up doing something much less lucrative and enjoyable as a physician, and not every lawyer ever makes a killing in litigation. Bank officers, managers, and engineers come and go during business cycles too. An associate of mine from my town was a bank president--three years ago I was asking him for money for a farm. Since then, he lost his job, sold his home, and now is a renter looking for work and calling me for leads. It isn't just pilots who suffer the slings and arrows of fortune. Granted, not having a seniority system means when some start over they don't always go to the bottom, but ours is not the only industry littered with disappointments.

For me it was simple. I loved flying fighters, but I didn't like going into work every day. I loved fighting in jets, but also wanted to see a bit more of the world. I loved teaching others and serving as an officer, but also longed for the day that my work consisted of showing up, doing my job professionally, then hitting the "brain off" switch the moment the plane was safely stowed instead of worrying about 100 other things besides flying that were required by my job. Being an airline pilot gave me all of that, and I have never been happier in my life. I took a chance, gave it my best shot, and ran to a major the first chance I had. Now, 8 years into it, I see I was very fortunate and blessed by God. But for those on the sidelines--yeah--sometimes the story DOES work out. At least for me--the money spent on flying lessons at age 15, the years of adventure and moments of terror in the military, and the effort to prepare for the interview at a major all were worth the effort.

Now--living this life has a price, too. I love seeing Europe, but wish my wife and kids were with me when I was gone. I don't miss holidays...but there is a long list of missed plays, performances, etc along the way. But I have a great wife who has her own passions and is confident and secure enough to let me chase mine, so we work pretty well as a team. Not every spouse is like mine, and not every pilot wants what I want out of a career--but my friends in other lines of work miss events at times too when duty calls.

Finally--a great way to enjoy what you have is to have a backup plan. Build a savings nest when you can. Take a second job--in another field--and develop skills outside of aviation too. We are all just a bad class 1 physical from needing new work. For military guys--keeping one foot in the Guard or Reserves is good career insurance. Knowing you have a parachute can reduce some of the day to day stress in this industry. I know many folks want the lifestyle...a good salary and 15 days off a month. Since I joined the industry in 2002, I've never seen enough stability to make me comfortable putting all my eggs in one basket, so I have always tried to look for other ways to put bread on the table. In my case, a small business and the ANG were just the ticket, but everyone has got their own skill sets. I've met pilots in construction (slow now!), real estate (a gazillion of them) a few lawyers, some plane brokers and mechanics, and a handful of farmers. The common thread to each of these folks was that while they were busy they LOVED their airline job. Maybe doing something else reminds us of the good stuff about this flying and why we got into it in the first place.

In any case...if you are currently miserable...I'm sorry. I know a lot of things have happened that weren't your fault. If you like me are happy--count your blessings and try to share your gratitude. And if you are out there on the fence...there is still room for success, but it’s a tough road and you should be realistic. Like other posters...I see a rebounding economy, some retirements, and a few manning changes by the FAA all pointing to some potential openings in the next few years. If this is still your dream, I think you will have some opportunities.

SH,

I tend to remember contradictions for some reason. And you make some whopper contradictory statements. I don't think that you are a liar but I do think that you are very dramatic in your quest to find fault in the career that you failed in.

Hey you bring up some very valid points but you also discredit yourself with some of your tales of operatic style failure and unfair treatment as they are overblown, severely. My major problem with your whole story was the "couldn't buy an interview in the mid 90's" bit when the Majors were starting to hire by the thousands and qualified guys were getting called for interviews all the qualified guys except for poor little old Skyhigh.

I didn't know anybody at UAL I got an interview and got hired. No dad there, no uncle, and no friends as you are so fond of pointing out is the only way to get anywhere in this business. I also got hired at AWA and ATI before UAL. I get sick and tired of reading your uniformed and highly emoitionally distraught drivel at times.

I am LAX based what are you doing next week?:)

Perceptions
 

Hoss,

I marvel at guys like you. Your career story reads like a fairy tale. I am sure that you can not relate or understand how an industry that has been so good to you and your generation could be so harsh to others. During the mid-1990's I was flying in rural Alaska trying desperately to get out of there and into a turbine of some kind. The recession of the early 1990's really slowed things down. Most of my graduating class from college never even got their first job.

I have a clean record. I never flunked a check ride or been fired from anyplace. I took the best jobs that were offered to me and have a file cabinet full of letters of recommendation and accolades from past employers. Every year I dutifully applied to every legacy, regional, and commutter airline that I knew of. I spent a fortune on application fees, job fairs and trade shows. I kept in contact with every pilot friend I got to know.

I do not know what the magic formula is however there are windows of opportunity that come along that seem offer easier pickings. I do not know all the details of your story but it seems to me that perhaps you hit the market at a good time. If that is the case I wish you could have some empathy for the rest of us.

You might be an expert on how to get hired in the late 1980's but I believe that my experience is more relevant to the challenges that pilots are facing now and in the future. New CFI's today have an uphill climb ahead of them. Is it their fault that fate has dealt them a harsh set of circumstances? My generation of pilots did not have it easy at all. Very few of the pilots I came up through the ranks with made it very far. When it finally appeared to be my time 9-11 came along and we were all tossed out. Are you really suggesting that it was all our fault? Do you really want to label me and my peers as losers? I can not accept that. I was there trying my best every day until it became to hard on my family to continue.

I know that I have made different choices than some here, but I can not agree that they were the wrong ones either. My career may have not worked out as I had planned but my personal life has. I don't think it was my fault but rather an industry and profession that is changing. People need to evaluate where the industry is going and if they really want to be there.

I would love to pick you up at the airport next week, share hunting stories and have lunch, however my wife and I have a baby in in the hospital right now. My wife is there with him by his bedside and I am holding things down at home with our other sons. I do not know when they will be back. Hopefully after that of you are available we could try again? :)


Skyhigh

Don't slam any doors
 

Great post, Albief15. I don't know how many times I've had to switch to "plan B", only to find that the outcome was even better than my expectations for "plan A". But that never led me to disparage "plan A" or those who continued to pursue it. You never know if that bus might come by again, just when you need a ride. :o

Skyhigh, you could still be living in the Northwest and making good money as a Captain at Horizon had you stayed. That's right, I said good money. I make more than most of my "professional" friends. How much money do you need? Plus, I've realised a boyhood dream of seeing the world. I don't want to be home every night. Boring. Your comment about flying in Alaska is telling. You should have been loving that experience and having a blast if this career was for you. I loved my 135 experiences. Sure the pay could have been better but somehow I always knew that gaining experience, developing my piloting and decision making skills, and the freedom and joy of that type of flying were all part of the compensation package.

It seems like leaving was a good decision for you. I'm curious why you can't just walk away.

Hopefully your son is OK!:(

I don't see it the same way
 

You are suggesting that since I was not having the time of my life as a bush pilot that perhaps I was not meant to fly? My reply is that I did not want to be a bush pilot. I did not ever want to be a regional pilot either. I wanted to be a respected major airline pilot who was well taken care of by my employer and was I willing to climb the ladder to get there.

Flying to me was a profession and not a vision quest. I loved it just as much as anyone else here but my main focus was in making a good living and not in adventure seeking. I am not alone either. Everyone in my college graduating class expected to get a better life out of their flying career as well. In the late 1980's the term "regional airline" did not exist. Horizon air was just a dead end fledgling airline that most of us were hoping to avoid.

Flying is for me. Poverty, long hours, constant moving and decreased financial security is not. Professional aviation has changed considerably since I took my first lesson. Had I known what the future held I certainly would have dropped the yoke long ago as most of my classmates did years prior.

I don't know much about you however given your attitude it would not surprise me if you were not a single guy who was married to the job. To that I say you are in good company. The path to success in aviation today seems lie in the maintenance of low expectations. Don't get married. Don't expect to have much of a home life. Don't plan on anything other than mailman wages and a life of managements choosing. If you are comfortable with that then you are in the right place. I however have a family to support and a life to live.

In answer to your question "why I can't just walk away" :

Just like you flying has been my dream since I was a kid. After spending most of my life trying to make that dream come true those urges don't just go away overnight. The best analogy I can offer is that I quit smoking over 20 years ago and still occasionally want to light up. I am sure that my aviation dreams will perpetually haunt me. After more than 20 years of effort you guys are all that I have left of my flying dreams.

Skyhigh

Thanks
 

Thanks,

He has been on a breathing tube in the ICU for a few weeks now but is expected to make a full recovery. No fun though...

Skyhigh

Oh man, how painful to watch! :(

Awesome to hear he'll be OK. :)

Thanks Again
 

Thanks again. The last few weeks have been difficult.

Skyhigh

SH,

Your kids health is far more important to me than a petty argument over something as trivial as flying. I hope that all goes well you and your family are in my thoughts. Let us know how this turns out.

I really don't know what there is to look forward to anymore honestly. Maybe just a few pipe dreams. Maybe ask the Midwest pilots what they have to look forward to?

As I watch my own company grow and consume, I watch my career expectations dwindle too. Sure would have been nice to be flying for Continental right now, but you can't control the hand you are dealt. Its all timing, good and bad. I seem to have caught things in the middle.

Unforunately, the future doesn't look very bright. Just look at the last 10 years, wages and working conditions have gone nowhere but backwards. There's no predicting the next 10 years in this industry, but one thing I've discovered is that spending so much time away from my wife is only going to get harder when we have our first child.

I've recently gone back to school and I'm hoping to make a career change out of this industry. Like Skyhigh, I think I'm coming to the realization that the sacrifices to fly metal just aren't worth the reward.

Forums
 

The last few weeks I have had a lot of nervous idle time on my hands. Thinking about APC stuff has been a welcome distraction.

You guys are the best !!

Skyhigh

Entire post was outstanding. Tip of the Hat, Sir!

Those must be good workrules to credit 120 hours every month.

At my regional we have lots of 4 hour sits, deadheads, and 32 hour layovers. Our best trips average around 4 hours a day; and many of our 4-days average 15 hours or less. And that's if you're a lineholder.

I'm only a 7th year FO, so I'm on reserve. I'm looking at a 75 hour guarantee at $41.54/hour. I'll be lucky to break $38,000 this year.

Live in base
Have a good contract
Be lucky enough to hold a line

I would guess that most domestic flying will soon be done by regionals flying larger equipment. (I know that scope rules should keep this from happening but as we have seen lately in MKE...) The overall need/pay for pilots will kept in check by each crew flying more pax, thus the future is not great.

How about a list of those countries to back up your claim?



Ally

India and China
 

What about India and China? And it is not really a claim but more of a prediction.

Skyhigh

Well said Sky...well said.

On another note...I think pilots are going to pay a HEAVY price for demeaning our own jobs. We have degraded ourselves and jets by flying them at the regional level. I personally, as a pilot don't have a respect for this industry as a whole. Everyone accepts that a 250 hour rookie with an RJ course is ready to fly 50+ passengers around. I think the ATP PIC min should be raised to 1,000 PIC in airplanes.

And I am sorry if you disagree, but this is why we are seeing "regional" jets getting bigger and bigger. I fear we have opened a door that can never be closed...the RJs are here and they will soon be carrying 150 seats for mediocre pay. Regionals and majors will merge...and that will be the end to any quality of life with an airline.

I agree with you that airline management has succeeded in trashing the integrity of our jobs through pay cuts, major airline job shrinkage and scope release. If they had their way, all airline pilots would get the regional pay.

ATP should be minimum with 1000 hours PIC time, either turbine or recip, to fly for any airline. 19 to 20 years old with 250 hours just does not cut the mustard in most passengers mind. Several passengers have commented on this several weeks ago on one of my flights. Part of the problem is the major airline hiring requirement requiring 1000 hours turbine time. This standard was set by airline pilots who came from the military ranks and who are entrenched at most major airline top tier, which favors the hiring from their military ranks. While this turbine requirement allows military guys with zero part 121 experience to get hired at most major airlines, this hiring standard forces guys who came from the civilian route to fly for regionals to get their turbine time. Cargo and corporate is one way to get this turbine time, but it is not easy to get corporate flying gig when you are just starting out.

Only way to get rid of this archaic requirement is to have all brand name flying, whether it be UAL, DAL, NWA, or AA be flown by respective airline pilots. There would be no regional airlines because all pilots flying under a particular flag will be under that seniority list.

Sky my prayers are with you and your family.