Questions from a controller
11-26-2009, 10:38 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Furloughed RJ to KSAT Tower/Tracon
Posts: 120
Questions from a controller
Hey all first a little background. I used fly the CRJ 2 and 7 for about 9 months prior to getting furloughed. Ive since become a controller and absolutely love it but having been on both sides of the mic some things do strike me as odd.
On several occasions pilots will ask for an opposite direction takeoff on the opposite runway for operational necessity. On all occasions that this has happened I look at the current wind and its always been either a 90 degree crosswind or theyre basically asking for a tailwind on departure.....FOR OPERATIONAL NECCESSITY... Now at first I thought maybe theyre looking at field gradient but all three of our runways are .4 or less which I cant imagine an E-170, 737 or an MD80 would be restricted by. It seems to me that taking off with a 5 or 6 knot tailwind would be more degrading to performance than having a -.4 slope vs a -.3 slope. I assume theyre just trying for the runway closest to the gate. Im not the runway police and could care less, just curious if maybe by chance there really was an operational need. On a similar topic I had a southwest pilot tell me the other day that SWA really stands for seldom wants active LMAO! That was great, I couldnt hardly talk to him I was laughing so much!
Taxi speeds.... In no way do I mean this in a degrading way to any company but 2 carriers tend to stick out. American and Southwest. Sometimes it appears AMerican isnt even moving on their taxi while Southwest sometimes appears ready to rotate. All other carriers tend to be somewhere in between and very similar speeds. Any American and Southwest pilots that could shed some light on reasons would be appreciated. Im assuming it has something to do with the way your contract is written and how you get paid.
As a previous airline pilot I always do my best to provide the best service possible to all you guys and girls out there and would like to think Im one of the more accommodating controllers out there. The more knowledge I have the better I can try to be. Thanks and fly safe!
On several occasions pilots will ask for an opposite direction takeoff on the opposite runway for operational necessity. On all occasions that this has happened I look at the current wind and its always been either a 90 degree crosswind or theyre basically asking for a tailwind on departure.....FOR OPERATIONAL NECCESSITY... Now at first I thought maybe theyre looking at field gradient but all three of our runways are .4 or less which I cant imagine an E-170, 737 or an MD80 would be restricted by. It seems to me that taking off with a 5 or 6 knot tailwind would be more degrading to performance than having a -.4 slope vs a -.3 slope. I assume theyre just trying for the runway closest to the gate. Im not the runway police and could care less, just curious if maybe by chance there really was an operational need. On a similar topic I had a southwest pilot tell me the other day that SWA really stands for seldom wants active LMAO! That was great, I couldnt hardly talk to him I was laughing so much!
Taxi speeds.... In no way do I mean this in a degrading way to any company but 2 carriers tend to stick out. American and Southwest. Sometimes it appears AMerican isnt even moving on their taxi while Southwest sometimes appears ready to rotate. All other carriers tend to be somewhere in between and very similar speeds. Any American and Southwest pilots that could shed some light on reasons would be appreciated. Im assuming it has something to do with the way your contract is written and how you get paid.
As a previous airline pilot I always do my best to provide the best service possible to all you guys and girls out there and would like to think Im one of the more accommodating controllers out there. The more knowledge I have the better I can try to be. Thanks and fly safe!
11-26-2009, 11:19 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: L Side
Posts: 409
Short answers:
Often the performance numbers that we have allows for higher weights in one direction than the other. STT comes to mind; we'd take a tailwind on runway 28 and depart over the sea instead of 10 into the terrain.
As an outsider looking in: AA pilots are not happy with their management/contract/etc. (understandably so) and so they taxi at a safe speed. They have my support and I used to enjoy being behind them. SWA is overall happy about their situation and they all try to help out the company. Plus, they get paid by the trip vs. per block hour.
Often the performance numbers that we have allows for higher weights in one direction than the other. STT comes to mind; we'd take a tailwind on runway 28 and depart over the sea instead of 10 into the terrain.
As an outsider looking in: AA pilots are not happy with their management/contract/etc. (understandably so) and so they taxi at a safe speed. They have my support and I used to enjoy being behind them. SWA is overall happy about their situation and they all try to help out the company. Plus, they get paid by the trip vs. per block hour.
11-26-2009, 11:43 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by ksatflyer
Hey all first a little background. I used fly the CRJ 2 and 7 for about 9 months prior to getting furloughed. Ive since become a controller and absolutely love it but having been on both sides of the mic some things do strike me as odd.
On several occasions pilots will ask for an opposite direction takeoff on the opposite runway for operational necessity. On all occasions that this has happened I look at the current wind and its always been either a 90 degree crosswind or theyre basically asking for a tailwind on departure.....FOR OPERATIONAL NECCESSITY... Now at first I thought maybe theyre looking at field gradient but all three of our runways are .4 or less which I cant imagine an E-170, 737 or an MD80 would be restricted by. It seems to me that taking off with a 5 or 6 knot tailwind would be more degrading to performance than having a -.4 slope vs a -.3 slope. I assume theyre just trying for the runway closest to the gate. Im not the runway police and could care less, just curious if maybe by chance there really was an operational need. On a similar topic I had a southwest pilot tell me the other day that SWA really stands for seldom wants active LMAO! That was great, I couldnt hardly talk to him I was laughing so much!
Taxi speeds.... In no way do I mean this in a degrading way to any company but 2 carriers tend to stick out. American and Southwest. Sometimes it appears AMerican isnt even moving on their taxi while Southwest sometimes appears ready to rotate. All other carriers tend to be somewhere in between and very similar speeds. Any American and Southwest pilots that could shed some light on reasons would be appreciated. Im assuming it has something to do with the way your contract is written and how you get paid.
As a previous airline pilot I always do my best to provide the best service possible to all you guys and girls out there and would like to think Im one of the more accommodating controllers out there. The more knowledge I have the better I can try to be. Thanks and fly safe!
On several occasions pilots will ask for an opposite direction takeoff on the opposite runway for operational necessity. On all occasions that this has happened I look at the current wind and its always been either a 90 degree crosswind or theyre basically asking for a tailwind on departure.....FOR OPERATIONAL NECCESSITY... Now at first I thought maybe theyre looking at field gradient but all three of our runways are .4 or less which I cant imagine an E-170, 737 or an MD80 would be restricted by. It seems to me that taking off with a 5 or 6 knot tailwind would be more degrading to performance than having a -.4 slope vs a -.3 slope. I assume theyre just trying for the runway closest to the gate. Im not the runway police and could care less, just curious if maybe by chance there really was an operational need. On a similar topic I had a southwest pilot tell me the other day that SWA really stands for seldom wants active LMAO! That was great, I couldnt hardly talk to him I was laughing so much!
Taxi speeds.... In no way do I mean this in a degrading way to any company but 2 carriers tend to stick out. American and Southwest. Sometimes it appears AMerican isnt even moving on their taxi while Southwest sometimes appears ready to rotate. All other carriers tend to be somewhere in between and very similar speeds. Any American and Southwest pilots that could shed some light on reasons would be appreciated. Im assuming it has something to do with the way your contract is written and how you get paid.
As a previous airline pilot I always do my best to provide the best service possible to all you guys and girls out there and would like to think Im one of the more accommodating controllers out there. The more knowledge I have the better I can try to be. Thanks and fly safe!
taxi speed- SWA pay by trip = quickly as safely possible.
AMR (or any other airline in contract talks) Taxi speed is their way of showing mgt. "who is in control". They, (APA), haven't been allowed to strike in the past and won't be allowed to strike in the future, IMHO.
Best course of action on your part, ignore the taxi speed antics, give the opposite runway if you can.
Good luck!!
11-27-2009, 12:01 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
AA and SWA questions answered.
Just to add a little to the last question. Guys will ask for a different runway for a number of reasons. Some of witch are: on landing, get the runway that will be closest to your gate. Ask for the opposite runway to avoid a downwind and get a straight in approach (wind permitting), on takeoff, ask for the runway that will get them airborne the quickest, ask for the opposite runway if it leads to a straight out departure in the direction they are heading, again wind permitting. Usually this only happens at fairly small airports or in the early hours of the morning at larger airports. (If even then)
It's all about the "Benjamins." Read gas!!!
Denny
Just to add a little to the last question. Guys will ask for a different runway for a number of reasons. Some of witch are: on landing, get the runway that will be closest to your gate. Ask for the opposite runway to avoid a downwind and get a straight in approach (wind permitting), on takeoff, ask for the runway that will get them airborne the quickest, ask for the opposite runway if it leads to a straight out departure in the direction they are heading, again wind permitting. Usually this only happens at fairly small airports or in the early hours of the morning at larger airports. (If even then)
It's all about the "Benjamins." Read gas!!!
Denny
11-27-2009, 02:16 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,258
A bigger factor then RW slope are obstacles in the departure corridor. They can have a huge effect on runway allowable weight. As far as taxi speeds you noted the two extremes. I have seen several taxi way incidents with SWA. Sooner or later they will have a serious one and slow down. If you have a incident and are going faster then the Boeing book speeds you can expect lots of trouble from the FAA. 30 knots on a straitaway, 15 knots on turns less then 90 and 10 knots on 90 degree or more turns.
11-27-2009, 05:03 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
KSATflyer,
First off, congrats on enjoying our job in ATC. You all do a great job overall.
Most of the questions regarding AA taxi speed have been answered. Like all stories go, there is a bit of history behind this:
A couple of years ago, we had an MD80 land in DFW on the west side. They were told that their gate was occupied, so they taxied slowly, including across runway 18L which was not being used.
Right behind him was a 737 that had just landed. The 737 CA just happened to be the 737 fleet manager. This guy became SO INCENSED at what appeared to be a job action unraveling right in front of him, that - while taxiing - he whipped out his cell phone and made a phone call demanding that the MD80 CA be met at his gate and taken off the trip for conducting an inappropriate job action.
The MD80 CA was indeed met at the gate and removed from his trip without pay.
After word of this got out, a couple thousand AA pilots immediately called/wrote the FAA to complain about one of our supervisory pilots - someone who is supposed to set a professional example - violating sterile cockpit AND company policy by making a phone call while taxiing.
This fleet manager supposedly had his license pulled and is now in charge of dispatch in a non-flying position.
After that incident, AA taxi speeds dropped at an astronomical rate. Throw in a ticked off pilot group, pilot harassment, contract negotiations going nowhere, and you probably get the picture. AA pilots want to be as safe as possible in this era of pilot hostage-taking.
Our sincere apologies to those stuck behind us. If I'm with a CA who taxis slowly and someone behind us speaks up, I encourage them to ask Ground or Tower to taxi around us, we will gladly give way.
Hope this clears some of it up. Thanks again for the great job you ATC folks do, day in/day out.
73
First off, congrats on enjoying our job in ATC. You all do a great job overall.
Most of the questions regarding AA taxi speed have been answered. Like all stories go, there is a bit of history behind this:
A couple of years ago, we had an MD80 land in DFW on the west side. They were told that their gate was occupied, so they taxied slowly, including across runway 18L which was not being used.
Right behind him was a 737 that had just landed. The 737 CA just happened to be the 737 fleet manager. This guy became SO INCENSED at what appeared to be a job action unraveling right in front of him, that - while taxiing - he whipped out his cell phone and made a phone call demanding that the MD80 CA be met at his gate and taken off the trip for conducting an inappropriate job action.
The MD80 CA was indeed met at the gate and removed from his trip without pay.
After word of this got out, a couple thousand AA pilots immediately called/wrote the FAA to complain about one of our supervisory pilots - someone who is supposed to set a professional example - violating sterile cockpit AND company policy by making a phone call while taxiing.
This fleet manager supposedly had his license pulled and is now in charge of dispatch in a non-flying position.
After that incident, AA taxi speeds dropped at an astronomical rate. Throw in a ticked off pilot group, pilot harassment, contract negotiations going nowhere, and you probably get the picture. AA pilots want to be as safe as possible in this era of pilot hostage-taking.
Our sincere apologies to those stuck behind us. If I'm with a CA who taxis slowly and someone behind us speaks up, I encourage them to ask Ground or Tower to taxi around us, we will gladly give way.
Hope this clears some of it up. Thanks again for the great job you ATC folks do, day in/day out.
73
11-27-2009, 06:48 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Furloughed
Posts: 281
Another item to mention is though a runway is the same length from both ends, as far as computing takeoff performance, it may not all be usable. If one end has a smaller than normal safety area off the end, part of the runway may have to be used in computation of the safety area. You then effectively have a "shorter" runway going one way than the other. Along these same lines, the presence and size of EMAS off the end of the runway can do wonders to increase the "length" of the runway in this situation.
Though quite significant at some airports, admittedly, this does not seem to be the case in SAT.
Though quite significant at some airports, admittedly, this does not seem to be the case in SAT.
11-27-2009, 07:01 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 767A
Posts: 791
I can only speak for myself, but if you hear me ask for an opposite direction takeoff for "operational necessity" it means my computer generated weight and balance shows me overweight for the normal runway. It may be slope, wind, second stage climb, etc. Don't know, don't care; it says I'm not legal.
It takes a jerk to screw up your traffic pattern to save themselves a few minutes. Had to wait several minutes #1 at MIA for an opposite direction landing.
AA and SWA are the obvious extremes of taxiing. I've almost been hit twice by SW clearing on a high speed, going too fast to stop. Slow is annoying, but at least it's not an accident looking for a place to happen.
It takes a jerk to screw up your traffic pattern to save themselves a few minutes. Had to wait several minutes #1 at MIA for an opposite direction landing.
AA and SWA are the obvious extremes of taxiing. I've almost been hit twice by SW clearing on a high speed, going too fast to stop. Slow is annoying, but at least it's not an accident looking for a place to happen.
11-27-2009, 07:30 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,708
Originally Posted by Readback
Operational necessity= close to the gate 9 times out of ten!
taxi speed- SWA pay by trip = quickly as safely possible.
taxi speed- SWA pay by trip = quickly as safely possible.
I've just about been mowed over by SWA guys several times as they exit the runway and are dashing to the gate with no clearance many times after being told to hold for traffic. It's just a matter of time before they have a ground collision.
After all when you have the heart of a Servant you must obey your master!
What is this "heart of a servant" cr@p at SWA anyway? Sounds pretty cultist to me.
11-27-2009, 07:31 AM
#10
Snakes & Nape
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: B-767 Captain
Posts: 775
Thanks for Posting
Originally Posted by ksatflyer
Ive since become a controller and absolutely love it but having been on both sides of the mic some things do strike me as odd.
I always do my best to provide the best service possible to all you guys and girls out there and would like to think Im one of the more accommodating controllers out there. The more knowledge I have the better I can try to be. Thanks and fly safe!
I always do my best to provide the best service possible to all you guys and girls out there and would like to think Im one of the more accommodating controllers out there. The more knowledge I have the better I can try to be. Thanks and fly safe!
Ksatflyer; your questions have been answered. The preferential runway request most likely are because of obstacle clearance and second segment climb requirements and not runway slope. As has been stated earlier, they can be significant depending on surrounding terrain.
Let's keep a dialogue going between pilot-controllers. It's well worth while and thanks !!
G'Day Mates
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