Storm Cloud on the Horizon
02-27-2010 | 05:29 PM
#41
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
************************************************** ********
I see all the vitriol about the commuting issue coming to the surface but Exactly WHAT would you DO about it were it to become LAW?? Congress is looking at the VAST Majority of workers INCLUDING executives that have to live near their places of employment. In their Eyes they see the problem as If you Work somewhere maybe you should LIVE near there as well. That might NOT be popular to Pilots BUT. Living Near a Hub of your operation might NOT be too much to ask if the question is put to you "right". I work for United. When I worked @ SFO I lived in a reasonable distance form SFO though there were guys who lived nearly 100 miles away from SFO and Came to work Daily. They bid where they wanted to Live when the opportunity (and seniority) came. Some that started @ SFO now live in Denver Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, OR., Chicago, New York, Washington and Boston. Many of them are NOT from those area but they live there just the same. There IS no inherent "Right" for Pilots to have to commute and not have a local address Near a Hub of your Airline. But Pilot's can't even seem to manage to form a SINGLE Strategy for their profession. Doctors Have the AMA, Lawyers Have the American Bar Assn. Pilots have NO such association to which they belong and support. You can't even agree that an Air Transport Rating is or should Be the entry point to become a "True" Airline Pilot. Or that having an Under-Graduate Degree is even Necessary!! Until you do, you will NEVER achieve the respect you think you're deserving of. Hell! Even Truck Drivers have the "Teamsters". Until Airline Pilots are ALL pulling on the SAME "end of the rope" you'll CONTINUE to be "Mis-represented, Lied to, Whipsawn, and Generally Abused". And you Bring it upon yourselves. One guy flies "by the Book" and at least Half of the rest of the group is looking for HIM to be "Canned"! Many are plotting their "number" IF he gets "Canned"! And you wonder WHY Management isn't afraid of you?? A National organization FOR Airline Pilots is NOT a Union. That's a Local Issue. The Lack of Nationwide Standards is your Problem. Any "Tom", "Dick","Harry" or John Travolta who can Earn,Beg,Borrow, or Steal can become an airline Pilot! Because the bottom Line is "Money"!! Not until that Bottom Line is DEMONSTRATED Education,Skill, Knowledge, and Proficiency will you gain the pretige and respect of your chosen Profession. Simple as THAT. Being an Airline Pilot Should come with something More than "I've got the Hours". And I got the JOB.. It SHOULD also come with an "Honorific" like a Phd. entitles a person of letters to addessed as "Doctor" William Tell. Not just Bill Tell you "Buttwipe". I met Justice Thurgood Marshall and I addressed Him as "Justice Marshall" untill he told me to stop it. Any Airline Captain should be addressed As "Captain" William Tell ,Atr. Also as a man or woman of "Letters". Then and ONLY then Will the respect you seek come about and be followed by the proper renumeration as well. Am I smoking Something?? Could be, but whether you AGREE with me or NOT. How FAR am I from the absolute TRUTH?!?
I see all the vitriol about the commuting issue coming to the surface but Exactly WHAT would you DO about it were it to become LAW?? Congress is looking at the VAST Majority of workers INCLUDING executives that have to live near their places of employment. In their Eyes they see the problem as If you Work somewhere maybe you should LIVE near there as well. That might NOT be popular to Pilots BUT. Living Near a Hub of your operation might NOT be too much to ask if the question is put to you "right". I work for United. When I worked @ SFO I lived in a reasonable distance form SFO though there were guys who lived nearly 100 miles away from SFO and Came to work Daily. They bid where they wanted to Live when the opportunity (and seniority) came. Some that started @ SFO now live in Denver Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, OR., Chicago, New York, Washington and Boston. Many of them are NOT from those area but they live there just the same. There IS no inherent "Right" for Pilots to have to commute and not have a local address Near a Hub of your Airline. But Pilot's can't even seem to manage to form a SINGLE Strategy for their profession. Doctors Have the AMA, Lawyers Have the American Bar Assn. Pilots have NO such association to which they belong and support. You can't even agree that an Air Transport Rating is or should Be the entry point to become a "True" Airline Pilot. Or that having an Under-Graduate Degree is even Necessary!! Until you do, you will NEVER achieve the respect you think you're deserving of. Hell! Even Truck Drivers have the "Teamsters". Until Airline Pilots are ALL pulling on the SAME "end of the rope" you'll CONTINUE to be "Mis-represented, Lied to, Whipsawn, and Generally Abused". And you Bring it upon yourselves. One guy flies "by the Book" and at least Half of the rest of the group is looking for HIM to be "Canned"! Many are plotting their "number" IF he gets "Canned"! And you wonder WHY Management isn't afraid of you?? A National organization FOR Airline Pilots is NOT a Union. That's a Local Issue. The Lack of Nationwide Standards is your Problem. Any "Tom", "Dick","Harry" or John Travolta who can Earn,Beg,Borrow, or Steal can become an airline Pilot! Because the bottom Line is "Money"!! Not until that Bottom Line is DEMONSTRATED Education,Skill, Knowledge, and Proficiency will you gain the pretige and respect of your chosen Profession. Simple as THAT. Being an Airline Pilot Should come with something More than "I've got the Hours". And I got the JOB.. It SHOULD also come with an "Honorific" like a Phd. entitles a person of letters to addessed as "Doctor" William Tell. Not just Bill Tell you "Buttwipe". I met Justice Thurgood Marshall and I addressed Him as "Justice Marshall" untill he told me to stop it. Any Airline Captain should be addressed As "Captain" William Tell ,Atr. Also as a man or woman of "Letters". Then and ONLY then Will the respect you seek come about and be followed by the proper renumeration as well. Am I smoking Something?? Could be, but whether you AGREE with me or NOT. How FAR am I from the absolute TRUTH?!?
I will tell you that most pilots live in FORMER bases. We have mechanics that commute from DFW to GDL via ATL. No I am not kidding. It is not just pilots.
Other industries have people commute all of the time and in income brackets way below ours. They also get lodging and transportation (hotel and airline tickets) paid for by their corporation. The problem for any airline in this day and age is they do not have the margins to support a large base. It is all economics and I stand by my previous statements.
As for the Association. I agree, that a professional association of airline pilots is needed. I am working on the framework from that, so if my buddy FtB. It takes people willing to think outside the box to change the path of a river.
I also agree that the barriers for entry to the piloting profession and the industry in general are very low. Safety needs to be put in the forefront. It is a hot potato as everyone and every corporation messes up at some point. That is why a professional non-profit third party association is one way to do this. Airlines would want to hire "Board Certified" pilots as it makes them look better. Just like the docs and lawyers.
02-27-2010 | 05:40 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
From: EMB-145
Sure it can just like flying sick or fatigue is "enforced". It puts the onus on the pilot. If you commute in the same day, exceed the "new and improved" Flight Time/Duty Time regs then blow a tire on take-off you'll be fired for violating the FARs. Problem solved as far as Congress, the FAA and John Q. Public is concerned. Welcome to the airlines of the 21st Century!
02-27-2010 | 06:10 PM
#43
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Exactly;
In an industry where you are in charge of someone's life, no one cares about your pay, or personal life. It is about saving their six, not yours. It is not about the inconvience to an overpaid pilot who only works 12 days a month. Win the battle of perception, and you can win this but not until then.
The way the CBA's are set up currently there is no financial onus on a company. The pilots will bear the cost of this, and guess what, no one cares. That is why if they choose to do it, it will happen.
I want to move near family and commute, that will put my plans to a halt. It will also put my thoughts of moving bases and chasing money to a halt. It will effect career earnings, but no one will care.
A battle for the facts needs to happen. Until then stopping the politicians from showing their constituent base that they "care" about their safety will move forward in the name of political gain.
In an industry where you are in charge of someone's life, no one cares about your pay, or personal life. It is about saving their six, not yours. It is not about the inconvience to an overpaid pilot who only works 12 days a month. Win the battle of perception, and you can win this but not until then.
The way the CBA's are set up currently there is no financial onus on a company. The pilots will bear the cost of this, and guess what, no one cares. That is why if they choose to do it, it will happen.
I want to move near family and commute, that will put my plans to a halt. It will also put my thoughts of moving bases and chasing money to a halt. It will effect career earnings, but no one will care.
A battle for the facts needs to happen. Until then stopping the politicians from showing their constituent base that they "care" about their safety will move forward in the name of political gain.
02-27-2010 | 06:42 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,621
Likes: 0
From: CR7 Capt
Generally I believe commuting is a problem that the airlines put on themselves. At egl if look at commuters. A lage majority commute out of former bases BOS RDU BNA, just to name a few. As a BOS NY commuter i'm generally not too concerned as it is a short flight, with frequency every half hour. I feel for some of our guys/gals that where displaced from LAX to JFK. I'd be worried.
02-27-2010 | 06:44 PM
#45
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Like I said. If I were to move it would be to a former DAL base where my wife and I have our roots.
For those that do not live in former bases, they live where their family is. (generally, of course)
For those that do not live in former bases, they live where their family is. (generally, of course)
02-28-2010 | 07:17 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 284
Likes: 0
A couple of staff investigators could make an "example" out of a couple of folks a year, and everyone else would be running scared.
02-28-2010 | 07:41 AM
#47
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Easy. Tie the requirement to certificate action, not "legal" action (i.e jail). Computers can easily match your "FAA registered address" with the one on your medical, your IRS returns, your drivers license, vehicle registration, where you pay (or don't pay) state income taxes, credit cards, etc. If they don't match, it'd be pretty easy to figure out where you really live. If you are found to be living outside of the "bubble" they take action on your certificate.
A couple of staff investigators could make an "example" out of a couple of folks a year, and everyone else would be running scared.
A couple of staff investigators could make an "example" out of a couple of folks a year, and everyone else would be running scared.
02-28-2010 | 08:11 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,196
Likes: 51
From: Legacy FO
************************************************** ********
I see all the vitriol about the commuting issue coming to the surface but Exactly WHAT would you DO about it were it to become LAW?? Congress is looking at the VAST Majority of workers INCLUDING executives that have to live near their places of employment. In their Eyes they see the problem as If you Work somewhere maybe you should LIVE near there as well. That might NOT be popular to Pilots BUT. Living Near a Hub of your operation might NOT be too much to ask if the question is put to you "right". I work for United. When I worked @ SFO I lived in a reasonable distance form SFO though there were guys who lived nearly 100 miles away from SFO and Came to work Daily. They bid where they wanted to Live when the opportunity (and seniority) came. Some that started @ SFO now live in Denver Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, OR., Chicago, New York, Washington and Boston. Many of them are NOT from those area but they live there just the same. There IS no inherent "Right" for Pilots to have to commute and not have a local address Near a Hub of your Airline. But Pilot's can't even seem to manage to form a SINGLE Strategy for their profession. Doctors Have the AMA, Lawyers Have the American Bar Assn. Pilots have NO such association to which they belong and support. You can't even agree that an Air Transport Rating is or should Be the entry point to become a "True" Airline Pilot. Or that having an Under-Graduate Degree is even Necessary!! Until you do, you will NEVER achieve the respect you think you're deserving of. Hell! Even Truck Drivers have the "Teamsters". Until Airline Pilots are ALL pulling on the SAME "end of the rope" you'll CONTINUE to be "Mis-represented, Lied to, Whipsawn, and Generally Abused". And you Bring it upon yourselves. One guy flies "by the Book" and at least Half of the rest of the group is looking for HIM to be "Canned"! Many are plotting their "number" IF he gets "Canned"! And you wonder WHY Management isn't afraid of you?? A National organization FOR Airline Pilots is NOT a Union. That's a Local Issue. The Lack of Nationwide Standards is your Problem. Any "Tom", "Dick","Harry" or John Travolta who can Earn,Beg,Borrow, or Steal can become an airline Pilot! Because the bottom Line is "Money"!! Not until that Bottom Line is DEMONSTRATED Education,Skill, Knowledge, and Proficiency will you gain the pretige and respect of your chosen Profession. Simple as THAT. Being an Airline Pilot Should come with something More than "I've got the Hours". And I got the JOB.. It SHOULD also come with an "Honorific" like a Phd. entitles a person of letters to addessed as "Doctor" William Tell. Not just Bill Tell you "Buttwipe". I met Justice Thurgood Marshall and I addressed Him as "Justice Marshall" untill he told me to stop it. Any Airline Captain should be addressed As "Captain" William Tell ,Atr. Also as a man or woman of "Letters". Then and ONLY then Will the respect you seek come about and be followed by the proper renumeration as well. Am I smoking Something?? Could be, but whether you AGREE with me or NOT. How FAR am I from the absolute TRUTH?!?
I see all the vitriol about the commuting issue coming to the surface but Exactly WHAT would you DO about it were it to become LAW?? Congress is looking at the VAST Majority of workers INCLUDING executives that have to live near their places of employment. In their Eyes they see the problem as If you Work somewhere maybe you should LIVE near there as well. That might NOT be popular to Pilots BUT. Living Near a Hub of your operation might NOT be too much to ask if the question is put to you "right". I work for United. When I worked @ SFO I lived in a reasonable distance form SFO though there were guys who lived nearly 100 miles away from SFO and Came to work Daily. They bid where they wanted to Live when the opportunity (and seniority) came. Some that started @ SFO now live in Denver Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, OR., Chicago, New York, Washington and Boston. Many of them are NOT from those area but they live there just the same. There IS no inherent "Right" for Pilots to have to commute and not have a local address Near a Hub of your Airline. But Pilot's can't even seem to manage to form a SINGLE Strategy for their profession. Doctors Have the AMA, Lawyers Have the American Bar Assn. Pilots have NO such association to which they belong and support. You can't even agree that an Air Transport Rating is or should Be the entry point to become a "True" Airline Pilot. Or that having an Under-Graduate Degree is even Necessary!! Until you do, you will NEVER achieve the respect you think you're deserving of. Hell! Even Truck Drivers have the "Teamsters". Until Airline Pilots are ALL pulling on the SAME "end of the rope" you'll CONTINUE to be "Mis-represented, Lied to, Whipsawn, and Generally Abused". And you Bring it upon yourselves. One guy flies "by the Book" and at least Half of the rest of the group is looking for HIM to be "Canned"! Many are plotting their "number" IF he gets "Canned"! And you wonder WHY Management isn't afraid of you?? A National organization FOR Airline Pilots is NOT a Union. That's a Local Issue. The Lack of Nationwide Standards is your Problem. Any "Tom", "Dick","Harry" or John Travolta who can Earn,Beg,Borrow, or Steal can become an airline Pilot! Because the bottom Line is "Money"!! Not until that Bottom Line is DEMONSTRATED Education,Skill, Knowledge, and Proficiency will you gain the pretige and respect of your chosen Profession. Simple as THAT. Being an Airline Pilot Should come with something More than "I've got the Hours". And I got the JOB.. It SHOULD also come with an "Honorific" like a Phd. entitles a person of letters to addessed as "Doctor" William Tell. Not just Bill Tell you "Buttwipe". I met Justice Thurgood Marshall and I addressed Him as "Justice Marshall" untill he told me to stop it. Any Airline Captain should be addressed As "Captain" William Tell ,Atr. Also as a man or woman of "Letters". Then and ONLY then Will the respect you seek come about and be followed by the proper renumeration as well. Am I smoking Something?? Could be, but whether you AGREE with me or NOT. How FAR am I from the absolute TRUTH?!?
Amazingly it takes an outsider to serve up a dose of reality to this profession.
Easy. Tie the requirement to certificate action, not "legal" action (i.e jail). Computers can easily match your "FAA registered address" with the one on your medical, your IRS returns, your drivers license, vehicle registration, where you pay (or don't pay) state income taxes, credit cards, etc. If they don't match, it'd be pretty easy to figure out where you really live. If you are found to be living outside of the "bubble" they take action on your certificate.
A couple of staff investigators could make an "example" out of a couple of folks a year, and everyone else would be running scared.
A couple of staff investigators could make an "example" out of a couple of folks a year, and everyone else would be running scared.
All the FAA has to do is institute a law that makes commuting part of duty day, or perhaps a sterile time between your commute flight and work, and thus the airlines will then have to react. Since most airlines are CASS participants, the infrastructure for tracking your commutes is already in place. The scheduling programs changed to look back at your last jumpseat / non-rev flight to ensure you have the proper timing between your flight and report duty. If you don't, you aren't legal.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
QCappy
Horizon Air
0
10-02-2008 08:57 AM
