Its sad the media honestly things this is a story worth running. Can no one think out side the box to wonder if maybe the Dad actually does know what he's doing?

I was at work today with a guy who told me about this story. I told him it sounds like a fun time for the kid and shrugged it off. He couldn't believe me. He was convinced that flaming balls of fire would be falling from the sky.

I would gladly email someone if it would support this controller.

I'd say 20-30 years ago it wouldn't have gotten me fired.

+1 I am also JFK based, and I generally like the controllers there. We need all the good guys we can get (and keep)

I have to say I feel pretty bad for the kid as well. Imagine what kind of guilt he's got to be feeling after all this is blowing up.

Well that's great, but it doesn't answer the question. There are lots of things that happened 20-30 years ago that are different today. 20-30 years ago people were smoking on planes, would you allow your pax to smoke if they wanted to? 20-30 years ago you were taught that if there was a hijacker on board, you should bring them up to the cockpit to discuss things. Is that how you would handle it today?

Now back to the question, your F/O wants to bring his kid up to the jumpseat in the middle of the flight. Do you let him do it and what opinion do you have of his judgment?

BTW, I am absolutely not advocating that this controller be "fired"....and before everyone starts the letter writing campaign, he hasn't been fired. Simply relieved of his duties while they investigate.

well said... :cool:

Is the question even whether this controller did something against regulations (which it seems he did IF only controllers are allowed in the tower and IF only controllers are allowed to talk to aircraft) or whether something as simple as showing your child your workplace and letting him/her talk on the radio should be elevated to such a HUGE no-no?

In my recent past, controllers were asking for pilots to come up to the tower and approach control for orientation. I've been to both - are the controllers breaking the rules by letting me in the tower? I've even had someone else besides a controller clear me for take-off! In the old job we had what was called Family Day and family and friends got to say "Roger Ball" to their family member or friend coming into to land during an FCLP period (on a separate tower freq), but does this break t he rules too?

How about applying just a tad of common sense to the situation?
This is a sad situation and along the same lines of why you can rarely even get up close to an aircraft at an airshow, more rare to actually get to see inside the cockpit, more rare to have the canopy open, and INCREDIBLY rare to actually sit in the cockpit. Of course this last statement is based on your own service's rules and regs and all the way down to your own squadron's SOP - but those good ole' days are pretty much gone too.

USMCFLYR

I agree with everyone else.... what a great moment for that kid....

Gotta love this day and age.... something makes it to youtube and EVERYBODY is suddenly an expert.

I tell him "I wish we could, but there are to me GD namby pampy weakazz witnesses on board. Sucks but blame the nanny state. I'll get him in the sim though."

I agree that this was blown way out of proportion by the media, but would it have been that hard for the guy to just show the kid around the cab without mic'ing him up. It's cool enough for a little kid to see the view from the tower. Why risk your job?

With Liveatc.net, everyone listening on freq, and the tapes rolling downstairs, it would have been a smarter play to just let him listen in; especially these days. Hindsight is 20-20... but I hope he gets back to work either way.

NATCA: Staff Directory
Safety & Technology: [email protected]

FAA Contact FAA


Agreed. This is getting blown way out of proportion. I've let a kid make a PA on while boarding ("Please take your seats"). Think that would make the news?

I agree with you completely.....if this controller had used just a little common sense, we wouldn't be having this discusssion.

I don't know the exact ATC rules, but since both the FAA and his own union, NATCA have issued statements saying that they condemn his actions and question his professionalism, I'm going to assume that he broke some pretty clear rules and likely knew that he was doing so at the time. My guess is that the problem comes down to two issues, access to a secure facility and access to the radios, but I'll let the investigation run it's course.

I'm also going to assume that he realized that everything his son said on the radios was going to be taped. I also assume he knew that dozens of crewmembers would hear this. Furthermore, it would be witnessed by a number of his coworkers in the tower, all of whom he put in a terrible position. Lastly, anyone who works ATC knows that there are now hundreds if not thousands of amateur scanners in this country listening in on the frequency just waiting to post any errors on LiveATCnet. Everyone keeps asking why this is getting so much attention and the reason is that this guy was silly enough to drop his pants in front of lots of people. You know, we all make mistakes in this business, and I've made some doozies, but they were generally in the heat of battle. This guy apparently preplanned this and willfully carried it out.

The going sentiment in this thread is that nothing bad happend, so what's the big deal? I could go through the entire book of FARs and easily make the case that on a rule by rule basis that you could ignore various FARs and easily complete the flight safely. But if you got into Flying with the notion that you would be a maverick and do your own thing by picking and choosing which rules to follow based on whether you thought they were important or not, then I'm here to tell you that you are in the wrong business. I'll even cop to breaking a few rules myself as I can neither confirm nor deny the odd crossword, but if I do it right in front of a Fed inspector, I'm not going to cry foul when he whacks me for being stupid. This guy broadcast his transgressions for all to hear and on a 1 to 10 Scale of Safety danger its probably a 1....but on a judgment scale where he put himself and his coworkers in a really bad positon, it's right up there. Again, I don't want him fired, but he was the one who made it a 'public' incident, so it's kind of hard to just sweep it under the rug. I hope he just gets a retraining session or whatever wrist slap controllers get,


Lastly, there's a lot of whining about the nanny state and too many rules. I tend to agree but the fact is that many of the rules come about because those in our own ranks abuse the system. While you can no longer walk up and visit an ATC facility since 9/11, with the proper authorization, you could get access for any number of group visits. However, the latest news is that all unofficial visits have now been supended in light of this incident. If you wanted to get your kids Cub scout troop a visit, this event may have sealed the deal. I am a commuter and don't want to see any rules passed limiting my choices. However, we have a few fellow pilots making some silly commuting decisions and next thing you know congress is involved. The fact is that sometimes we are our own worst enemies. Perhaps istead of excusing every misdeed in threads like this we should practice a little more self policing to avoid the nanny state. Maybe if one of his coworkers said...."You know, this isn't a good idea", we wouldn't even be discussing this.

....and now I'll get down off my high and mighty soapbox.

As have I. Did the whole picture thing with the Captains hat and everything for a family on my last trip.

But I'm sure that you can see the difference between a little cockpit visit while sitting at the gate with the parking brake on versus giving a tour during takeoff or landing. Likewise, I think there's a difference between arranging with your boss for a tour of the tower for your kid while you are off duty versus bringing him in during your shift to man the radios during the evening push.....but admittedly, I'm in the minority here.

This was probly JFK mid day. Not a busy or dangerous place. There was NO safety issue at all.

If more fathers took this type of interest in their sons, I think the world would be a better place.

The reason this Aeroflot A310 lost control is due to the ailerons being disengaged from the autopilot without any alarm sounding off once the yoke was held in a turn for more than 30 seconds. The aircraft wanted to maintain altitude which led it to loosing control, and to top it off once the captain regained his seat he kept fighting the stall system, all the crew had to have done in that situation to recover was to let go of the systems and the plane would have recovered itself. The crew were never trained nor were they made aware of this feature from Airbus or Aeroflot. It was a freak accident that happened and can't be blamed for the kid or the father for screwing up.

When I was 5 years old I once sat left seat in a DC-10 and got to push some buttons and even got to turn the heading selector to turn the plane, I still remember the Captain watching my every move and instructed me on how to do it. I think this controller made a safe fun decision to let his kid experience his fathers job, hell I think this man should be rewarded for actually involving his kid into his life and letting his kid understand what "Daddy has to go to work" really means...

This.

Probably the biggest reason I'm pursuing a career now in aviation is due to the opportunities I had to jumpseat on my Dad's trips. Of course those times are long gone now, but I remember them clearly.

The second biggest would be my Mom's idea;
I actually still maintain a logbook that my Mom started for me and contains every flight I've ever been on since I was 3 weeks old. I took over keeping track when I was about 7 or 8 and used to ask for the Flight crew's to sign it. Always ended up getting an interesting comment in there, or invited up sometimes. I havn't entered any of my personal training flights into it yet, but I still do keep track of all the other flights. Its a nice motivation booster to go back through it and check out all the odd-ball places I've been but can't remember...

Its just good to see another Dad doing what he can to give some inspiration to his kid. Whether or not he becomes an ATC is irrelevant. Its the shock and awe factor that kids really don't get anymore I think.

Hate to Disagree
 

Perhaps. The problem is that the media got a hold of it and has run like hell with the story. Even the Weather Channel did a special on the story and how it was "unsafe to let children control commercial flights".

The sad truth is that we need Congress in our corner now and although this was a small story, it's been blown out of proportion and it didn't help advance the cause of "professionalism" with the aviation community.

I'm just playing the piano, so don't shoot !:eek:

G'Day Mates:)

Watching the local news tonight, they stated, "ATC instructs pilots on how to land...how would you feel knowing a child was telling your pilot how to land the plane?"

All the fun stuff has been or is being taken away. I remember hearing stories from my dad about hiding dirty photos anywhere they could think of, being able to visit the cockpit in flight, to now, not being allowed to talk to one another. Seems what the controller did was on the boarder but the kid did not cause any incidents or accidents, I am sure he was fully supervised the whole time...and he only worked 3-4 flights. Slap the guy on the wrist and let him get back to work.

So true, never know who is DH in the back or if a flight attendant has sand up her $&%%@

I know analogies have their limits, but would you feel comfortable if I told you I let my kid in the operating room during your procedure to do something simple?

I believe the only absolutely correct answer to these kind of questions is "it depends." :) As everybody pointed out, situations such as this when properly supervised it is safe, encourages further learning. However this all depends on the extremely good judgment of the supervisor....

For example, I would never let ANYBODY in a sterile area that wasn't properly instructed and observed closely in proper technique, as a kid could touch something and not tell you and the patient could get an infection. Kids are unpredictable. That being said, I would probably let an interested teenager in the (nonsterile) control room to watch a procedure from afar, and learn what I do.

However, I would argue by letting this kid on the microphone, this guy showed somewhat poor judgment; the kid could probably repeat things but

1. Everything is being recorded, and broadcast all over the internet. Honestly, what do you think would happen?? LiveATC will see a bump in traffic thanks to this.
2. No matter what you think, you have to realize that other pilots might wonder what is going on and be uncomfortable with this. A pilot does not know immediately that the controller is right behind them all the time or know that you are a responsible supervisor.
3. You'd have to really, really watch what the kid says and make sure everything is ok. This demands a great deal of additional concentration.

His "sound judgment" should have predicted national news would happen when laypeople heard the recordings. The average joe doesn't know how dangerous this is in fact, but it sounds extremely dangerous. :( Now, I fear an over-reaction, and legislation may ruin things for everybody else.

Ya know. This blows my mind. What's the big freaking deal? The ATC guy was telling his kid EXACTLY what to say. WHO CARES???!!!

Is this really any different then when I was an RJ CA, & had to babysit 250 hour wonder FO's? :rolleyes:


The FAA doesn't have any problems with that. Do people not think there was a supervisor hanging around? Do people not think he was right there to correct anything? As usual, the media blows things way out of proportion.

I bet you if we told them this would lead to cheaper airfares they'd have no problem with it at all. :rolleyes:

Nobody was ever going to be in danger, I'm sure the kid had a great time, but.... it does show bad judgement just because of how sensitive the public is about aviation. You could probably talk to 10,000 pilots and only a couple blow hards are really gonna think the guy should get fired, most of us are going to think he should get a slap on the wrist. Alternatively, if you talked to 10,000 average people I'd bet you get something like 7,000 of them that say fire the guy. It's just a case of the "don't get caught" if it had stopped with those pilots and a couple chuckles, hey the kid had a good time, he understands what dad does, everybody wins. Unfortunately once anybody takes interest in that, there's LOTS of incriminating evidence of something that just doesn't LOOK good to the general public.

I'm in the let him off with a slap on the wrist crowd and would be happy to write my congressman or whoever telling them.

wow... call it like it is!

I'm all for "bring your kid to work week". I don't mind letting the kid sit in front, push buttons, take pictures but not in flight. Just out of respect for the person Iam flying with, I do not want to put the CA in a uncomfortable situation. It's already difficult to fly with a CA who dries his laundry on the dash while in cruise flight.

Lesson learned, let's move on!

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant -- part of having good professional judgment is knowing how others will perceive you.

Absolutely true, in reality it does not matter if ATC is in their underwear, as long as they do a good job and are paying attention. However, lapses in professionalism are often emblematic of people paying attention to things they shouldn't (e.g. 3407, 3701), and it is difficult to argue kids in the control tower while on duty do not occupy a bit of brainpower keeping track of what THEY are up to.

Many idealistic persons tend to look at themselves in isolation -- I would be the same doctor in jeans and a polo shirt, and possibly more effective because I'd be more comfortable. However, I'm sitting here in a suit and tie typing this before I go home (no lie) because I am aware that many view it as a surrogate for professionalism. This guy should have known a skittish public would not look kindly upon this event.

Me too, Tony. But, isn't about our love for hot Latinas?

That captain was a fool.

^^ explain?:confused:

You guys crack me up. How many of you who are saying this is no big deal were carrying pitchforks for the MSP pilots? Either a willful disregard for regulations should be handled harshly or it should be laughed off. Which is it?

Both situations were the result of professionals making errors of judgment and both situations ended the same, no one ever in jeopardy.

The hypocrisy of the FAA is precious here. I'm sure the employees were suspended with pay. They will receive their due process rights and they will get their jobs back. Juxtapose that with the treatment of our two FNW brethren. I'm just sayin' ...

While I agree that it's "not that big of a deal" and he was def in control.... he should have known better that:

1. He shouldnt have done it.

and the biggest thing:

2. PEOPLE ARE GONNA BE LISTENING!!!!


I couldn't believe it took it this long to break into the media.. happened a few weeks ago. The drive by media is always looking for a big easy juicy one... NW188 was that, and this is just as good or better since they actually have sound bites.

The world is different. It has happened since then, and I know one pilot that got canned for it.

Poor SA on the controller's part; he had to know it would get out and then the idiot cable news clowns would start having coronaries. That being said, holy crow can our freaking country lighten up a bit? This guy did something that probably gave his kid a big kick, is involved in his son's life, and damned sure didn't actually compromise safety... now his livelihood is jeopardized. Meanwhile, the same news companies that are all a-twitter over this will break from the story to show us more of the "Jersey Shore" cast. I love our country but really hate it too sometimes, ya know?

Is anyone getting sick and tired of media, ignorant people, and things getting blown out of proportion?

I think this guy should be fired too... YouTube - Vancouver Air Traffic Controller makes Marriage Proposal live on Air - A MUST HEAR
You know what, I think that anyone messing around on frequency should be fired. No more thank yous, no more nothing. All Business all the time...

[............] I smiled when I heard this because let's face it, we all need to smile, laugh, or enjoy some part of our day. I would assume that all of the pilots in that sound bite were entertained and enjoyed it.

This act was 100% harmless, was supervised and we all know that. If you don't know that, then you should rot in h#[L with the rest of the Americans that have sticks too far up their @$$es to have any fun, smile, or enjoy life at any point.

If someone has any address, like stated earlier, that we can write to, anyone, I would love to write something to help this guy in any way.

I know this is a nasty post. And if it offended anyone, then good.

Bring on Re-education!

Guess that professional all the time would exclude all the SuperBowl, World Series, Stanley Cup and Kentucly Derby information being passed around too.
We in the States like to swing the pendulum

USMCFLYR

I thought it was great but what do I know I'm just the guy that actually talks to them. By all means let the media judge. :/

OK!!..... enough about the kid controller. What will become of the Jet Blue crew that accepted a take off clearance from what was obviously a kid and not even stating "ok, as long as your daddy says its ok", or something to that effect. Accepting a T/O clearance... from a kid.... at JFK?? Cute I know, but really??

FBP

If he didn't accept the clearance he could be charged with discrimination by the hormonelly challenged protection society. Who are you to question whether someone sounds like a kid or not?:D Doesn't the American with Disability Act mean anything to you you ageaphobe.

And if, after accepting said clearance, promptly ran into a fuel truck crossing the runway? Or botched up a V1 cut? Or hit birds, had both engines quit, and landed in the Hudson (either successfully, or worse, not so much so)?

Or declared "may day, may day, may day", but during the time of the transmission, a 10 year old was blocking out the radio issuing "supervised" ATC control instructions?