Originally Posted by JetPipeOverht (Post 773083)

It's funny, and tragic, all at the same time that we're talking about such an instance and it has made SUCH a headline....

Originally Posted by DelDah Capt (Post 772543)

Well that's great, but it doesn't answer the question. There are lots of things that happened 20-30 years ago that are different today. 20-30 years ago people were smoking on planes, would you allow your pax to smoke if they wanted to? 20-30 years ago you were taught that if there was a hijacker on board, you should bring them up to the cockpit to discuss things. Is that how you would handle it today?

Now back to the question, your F/O wants to bring his kid up to the jumpseat in the middle of the flight. Do you let him do it and what opinion do you have of his judgment?

BTW, I am absolutely not advocating that this controller be "fired"....and before everyone starts the letter writing campaign, he hasn't been fired. Simply relieved of his duties while they investigate.

Originally Posted by TonyWilliams (Post 773082)

And if, after accepting said clearance, promptly ran into a fuel truck crossing the runway? Or botched up a V1 cut? Or hit birds, had both engines quit, and landed in the Hudson (either successfully, or worse, not so much so)?

Or declared "may day, may day, may day", but during the time of the transmission, a 10 year old was blocking out the radio issuing "supervised" ATC control instructions?

Originally Posted by BigGuns (Post 772608)

This was probly JFK mid day. Not a busy or dangerous place. There was NO safety issue at all.

If more fathers took this type of interest in their sons, I think the world would be a better place.

Originally Posted by tuna hp (Post 773164)

As an air passenger and non-pilot I am not scared by this at all. I believe that pilots and air traffic controllers have displayed to me a level of professionalism that far exceeds the level of pay and respect that they get. Who knows how many doctors or lawyers bring their kids into their office and allow them to do filing or photocopying. If the files were to be misplaced there would be serious problems, but nobody questions those professional judgments because we trust doctors and lawyers to be sure that mistakes will not be made.

If it was not disrupting operations or safety, I don't see whats so wrong about it. I heard a recording and it seemed like all the pilots really thought that it was cute.

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773235)

What was a non-FAA employee doing in the cab to begin with ?

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773235)

Of greater concern is the fact that the circus hype created by this incident has not done anything in terms of selling "professionalism" in this industry at a time when we need all the friends we can muster in Washington.

G'Day Mates:)

Originally Posted by tsquare (Post 773265)

Funny how our "professionalism" comes into focus whenever something like this occurs - even when nobody was or realistically could have been hurt - yet whenever it comes to compensating us or treating us (witness the coming oberstar/knucklehead bill concerning CVR monitoring) we are simply overpaid incompetents.

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773325)

First of all, after 25+ years in this industry, I have to say that the overwhelming majority of pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, CSR's and air traffic controllers do a very professional job and are a credit to themselves, their company and to the industry as a whole. No question about it. Unfortunately, it only takes an isolated incident, which this was, blown out of proportion by the blood thirsty media, to cast dispersion on a thousand acts of professional conduct.

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773325)

As for compensation, all the more reason to show the traveling public the demands that are placed on members of this profession every day and how those demands are met safely and ...here we go again, "professionally".

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773325)

As for Congressman Oberstar, I'm surprised his name is attached to the bill. I thought he was smarter than that.

G'Luck Mate:)...I'm out of this discussion !

Originally Posted by ThrustMonkey (Post 773425)

Perhaps next time we see a photo of our President in the Oval Office with his kids in there too, all of the media freaks can make some big deal about how them being in there while the President is conducting official business for the United States is a violation of national security.....its just as assinine.

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773235)

Well, it violates a number of rules. What was a non-FAA employee doing in the cab to begin with ? That is an FAA violation, whether he was a relative or not, under the new security regulations. .

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773235)

Well, it violates a number of rules. What was a non-FAA employee doing in the cab to begin with ? That is an FAA violation, whether he was a relative or not, under the new security regulations.

Originally Posted by DelDah Capt (Post 772604)

I agree with you completely.....if this controller had used just a little common sense, we wouldn't be having this discusssion.

I don't know the exact ATC rules, but since both the FAA and his own union, NATCA have issued statements saying that they condemn his actions and question his professionalism, I'm going to assume that he broke some pretty clear rules and likely knew that he was doing so at the time. My guess is that the problem comes down to two issues, access to a secure facility and access to the radios, but I'll let the investigation run it's course.

I'm also going to assume that he realized that everything his son said on the radios was going to be taped. I also assume he knew that dozens of crewmembers would hear this. Furthermore, it would be witnessed by a number of his coworkers in the tower, all of whom he put in a terrible position. Lastly, anyone who works ATC knows that there are now hundreds if not thousands of amateur scanners in this country listening in on the frequency just waiting to post any errors on LiveATCnet. Everyone keeps asking why this is getting so much attention and the reason is that this guy was silly enough to drop his pants in front of lots of people. You know, we all make mistakes in this business, and I've made some doozies, but they were generally in the heat of battle. This guy apparently preplanned this and willfully carried it out.

The going sentiment in this thread is that nothing bad happend, so what's the big deal? I could go through the entire book of FARs and easily make the case that on a rule by rule basis that you could ignore various FARs and easily complete the flight safely. But if you got into Flying with the notion that you would be a maverick and do your own thing by picking and choosing which rules to follow based on whether you thought they were important or not, then I'm here to tell you that you are in the wrong business. I'll even cop to breaking a few rules myself as I can neither confirm nor deny the odd crossword, but if I do it right in front of a Fed inspector, I'm not going to cry foul when he whacks me for being stupid. This guy broadcast his transgressions for all to hear and on a 1 to 10 Scale of Safety danger its probably a 1....but on a judgment scale where he put himself and his coworkers in a really bad positon, it's right up there. Again, I don't want him fired, but he was the one who made it a 'public' incident, so it's kind of hard to just sweep it under the rug. I hope he just gets a retraining session or whatever wrist slap controllers get,


Lastly, there's a lot of whining about the nanny state and too many rules. I tend to agree but the fact is that many of the rules come about because those in our own ranks abuse the system. While you can no longer walk up and visit an ATC facility since 9/11, with the proper authorization, you could get access for any number of group visits. However, the latest news is that all unofficial visits have now been supended in light of this incident. If you wanted to get your kids Cub scout troop a visit, this event may have sealed the deal. I am a commuter and don't want to see any rules passed limiting my choices. However, we have a few fellow pilots making some silly commuting decisions and next thing you know congress is involved. The fact is that sometimes we are our own worst enemies. Perhaps istead of excusing every misdeed in threads like this we should practice a little more self policing to avoid the nanny state. Maybe if one of his coworkers said...."You know, this isn't a good idea", we wouldn't even be discussing this.

....and now I'll get down off my high and mighty soapbox.

Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer (Post 773235)

Well, it violates a number of rules. What was a non-FAA employee doing in the cab to begin with ? That is an FAA violation, whether he was a relative or not, under the new security regulations. Secondly, the fact that a non-qualified person was transmitting instructions regarding aircraft movements is a violation of FAA policy. That's not an opinion,it's a fact.

Originally Posted by Emb170man (Post 773484)

Man, guess I'm a criminal...can't tell you how many times I've been up in teh cab..and I don't work for the FAA. At the airport I used to instruct at they encouraged us to bring students up for a tour. Recently I went up to meet the guys at the tower at the airport where I'm based (fairly busy Class C)...lock me up...I'm a bad man!

Originally Posted by DYNASTY HVY (Post 773728)

How did this leak out ?

Fred

Originally Posted by Lambourne (Post 773740)

Unfortunately the internet...The same one we are using to discuss this can be sourced as the genesis of this. While we use this forum to hash topics on aviation, there is an entire sub-culture of people that want to be in aviation or feel they are aviation experts because they have ridden on an airplane. These same people sit at home with JFK tower up on their computers all day long listening in to liveatc.net. They archive and save everything because they want to listen to a Iberia 605 get his take-off clearance. I don't know about you but the last thing I ever want to do when not flying is to listen to ATC. It is bad enough when I HAVE to, but much less doing it just for so-called fun.

It is these people (the armchair experts) with their scanners and computers that are now the extended arm of the FAA. They will report what they think is unsafe or dangerous, even if they haven't a clue what they are talking about. In this situation I am sure it was one of the folks that saved the recording and sent it off to be procreated in the news world as an outrage.

So the venue that we use to communicate here on the forum is being used by others to help police our industry. Thus the good and bad of technology. 20 years ago this would have been a non-event I suppose. But now we are a country of people that are predisposed to being offended at the slightest hint of anything out the normal.

If I was king for a day, I would ask that in fairness of freedom of information, the person that sent this to the media or released this information should be made public. Let the nation put a face to this person. This person is the Steve Bartman of aviation. We should all know who he is.

Finally, this is a great lesson for the new order of flying. Don't say anything on the radio you would not want Babbit to hear, because it might just wind up in the media. Truly disgusted with how this has industry and flying in general has evolved. It has lost much of the fun factor it once held.

L

Originally Posted by N9373M (Post 772265)

Bring your kid to work day?

Child Directed Traffic at JFK Airport; FAA Probes - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com