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Originally Posted by flyinpigg
(Post 776644)
I know how to fix this....and it ain't scope. If Wendy and the rest of the majors would focus on pay at the regionals instead of airframes it would fix it in an instant.
If they demanded that the starting pay for any feeder working for United et al. was 30/hr and captains topped at 120/hr or whatever they thought was appropriate. Because why do Majors have regionals? COST folks! Raise the cost of farming out your work and then it doesn't make as much sense to do so. Trying to limit airframes does not work. Raise the pay man! That is the answer. I agree that pay coming up would help to solve the problem. But the only way that can happen is if the regionals negotiate better rates. |
Originally Posted by flyinpigg
(Post 776644)
I know how to fix this....and it ain't scope. If Wendy and the rest of the majors would focus on pay at the regionals instead of airframes it would fix it in an instant.
If they demanded that the starting pay for any feeder working for United et al. was 30/hr and captains topped at 120/hr or whatever they thought was appropriate. Because why do Majors have regionals? COST folks! Raise the cost of farming out your work and then it doesn't make as much sense to do so. Trying to limit airframes does not work. Raise the pay man! That is the answer. |
Originally Posted by syd111
(Post 778768)
There you go I guess we will just walk in and demand better pay for you at the regionals and I am sure all the companies will just hand it right over. Anyone else we can negotiate for while we are at it. eez do you have any idea how any of this works?
Whats the difference? Last time I checked we still lived in America, land of capitalism, and free markets. Requiring a public company to limit the size and quantity of aircraft is a little socialist isn't it? I am just suggesting that the Unions at the majors try to focus on something else, because it obviously does not work. |
Originally Posted by flyinpigg
(Post 779155)
But requiring airlines to limit the size and number of aircraft is perfectly legitimate?
Whats the difference? Last time I checked we still lived in America, land of capitalism, and free markets. Requiring a public company to limit the size and quantity of aircraft is a little socialist isn't it? I am just suggesting that the Unions at the majors try to focus on something else, because it obviously does not work. Complaining about not being allowed to fly larger equipment under another airlines colors is like having an adult whine about not getting enough of an allowance while still living at home. If you don't like it move out and on... |
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
(Post 779346)
I bet your airline could go out and get any airplane they want and start flying around. They just can't paint United, Delta, American or what ever color they're flying under that isn't there own. They may have to drop some flying because why would an airline give guaranteed profits for them to compete against them directly. Think Independence Air.
Complaining about not being allowed to fly larger equipment under another airlines colors is like have an adult whine about not getting enough of an allowance while still living at home. If you don't like it move out and on... You aren't getting it, majors have scope to keep jobs at mainline and not outsourced to a regional. Majors have focused on airframes to accomplish this. All I am saying is that approach has not worked very well. Focus more on cost, it is the difference in cost that has caused this whole problem in the first place. You raise the cost of the people you are being outsourced to and all of a sudden it doesn't make as much sense to do so. So I don't see any real difference in telling UAL/DAL/AA that they can't partner with anyone who flies jets with more than 70 seats or tell those same companies they can't partner with any company that would pay pilots less than x for flying jets. Once again it is all about cost. Raise that and you might actually get somewhere. Here is Gordon Bethune, former Continental CEO, during his interview with PBS Frontline :Flying Cheap. Let's talk about the rise of the regionals and how that changed the business. First of all, help us understand how important the regional traffic is. ... ... Cities like, let's say, Corpus Christi, Texas, want to have jet service, and until there was a regional jet invented, they had turboprops. But they need to go to Paris just like anyone else in their business, so they would come to Houston and then take our flight to Paris. That catchment basin, they call it, of a market feeds your hubs, and that's why hubs are so powerful, because they offer transportation, competitive transportation. Let's say you are in Sarasota, Fla., and you wanted to go to Spokane, Wash. There's never going to be a nonstop flight. There's just not enough people between those cities there. You can do that over at Atlanta, over Dallas, over Houston, over Chicago -- a lot of competition for your flight. So that's where the regional jets come in, offering small cities competitive fares that they didn't have before. ... For a long time, many of the airlines owned these small airplanes, which fed their systems. That was the case at Continental when you got there, right? Explain how that worked or didn't work for you. Continental Express was a wholly owned subsidiary of Continental, but there really is no need to do that. ... It's like anything else: We don't do our own engine maintenance; we let the manufacturer do that for us. They do it more effectively. So regional flying can be done under contract to be competitive. ... Having an independent allows an airline to bid that and have a competitive relationship and make sure they get their flying done at the lowest cost. How does that save you, though? Labor cost primarily? Is that it? No, it's everything. In other words, it's like any other company. You have efficient companies, and you have inefficient companies. ... We compete with United, American and Delta for your business based on price, but if that price gets fixed in the marketplace, we have to get our cost below that to make a business. That's our pressure, and it's on us. And the regional supplier has the same pressure. So you were there and presided over outsourcing a lot of this business. Yeah, ... allowing Continental to have a really competitive environment in which to choose a partner. Continental Express still is Continental's provider, but they did it on a competitive basis. What was the whole thought process in putting this type of flying on to another company? It's a different kind of business. Regional jet flying in smaller airplanes aren't big airplanes and different employees, different labor standards, different wage rates, right? So if you want to be competitive, you can't start your pilots -- let's say if you join Continental Express as a first officer, you wouldn't automatically matriculate to a 737 captain at Continental. You need to keep that competitive in the business it's in, not in your business. And I think we did that. ... Help a lay audience understand how it's a different business. It's still airplanes, transportation and moving passengers safely. How does the distance traveled and the size of the airplane make it a different business, from your perspective? One, let's just take cost of people. You don't pay people the same to be a first officer on a regional jet as you do the first officer in a 747. ... The marketplace for those people are different. Whether you have a pension or whether you have days off or salaries or all those, that's a different business. ... They're all flying airplanes, but they're not flying the kind of airplanes you are with the same kind of standards that you're flying, and so you let that operate as if it's an independent business because other people are in that business. That's all they fly is regional jets, and you have to be really good at it, but you can't afford to have a lot of excess cost and still win a contract. So it makes the management be cost-effective. |
Thanks for posting that, Flyinpigg. A must read. Every airline pilot should read that interview. It is excellent reading. While Bethune makes many great points, some of his opinions are subject to debate or even in conflict with each other.
For example, first he says I think there's, what, 19 airlines in our country that handle about 95 percent of the business? How many do they have in the U.K.? One, two. How many in Germany? One. And how many in France? One. So do we really need 19 airlines to have competition? I don't think so. I used to tell the Transportation Department, I said, "You just need one, and we'll do it." Continental Express was a wholly owned subsidiary of Continental, but there really is no need to do that. ... It's like anything else: We don't do our own engine maintenance; we let the manufacturer do that for us. They do it more effectively. So regional flying can be done under contract to be competitive. ... Having an independent allows an airline to bid that and have a competitive relationship and make sure they get their flying done at the lowest cost. ....In other words, it's like any other company. You have efficient companies, and you have inefficient companies. ... We compete with United, American and Delta for your business based on price, but if that price gets fixed in the marketplace, we have to get our cost below that to make a business. That's our pressure, and it's on us. And the regional supplier has the same pressure. |
Originally Posted by flyinpigg
(Post 779412)
You aren't getting it, majors have scope to keep jobs at mainline and not outsourced to a regional. Majors have focused on airframes to accomplish this. All I am saying is that approach has not worked very well. Focus more on cost, it is the difference in cost that has caused this whole problem in the first place. You raise the cost of the people you are being outsourced to and all of a sudden it doesn't make as much sense to do so. So I don't see any real difference in telling UAL/DAL/AA that they can't partner with anyone who flies jets with more than 70 seats or tell those same companies they can't partner with any company that would pay pilots less than x for flying jets. Once again it is all about cost. Raise that and you might actually get somewhere.
Here is Gordon Bethune, former Continental CEO, during his interview with PBS Frontline :Flying Cheap. Of coarse cost is the major problem. If it wasn't why would management care who flew those airplanes. Even Bethune says it in the last question you posted. I'm sure if he could have it his way he would want to outsource all the flying and have everyone bidding for it. That way he can get the lowest bidder. ie. employee cost I wish the interviewer would have asked why Continental couldn't have made Continental Express efficient like the other companies out there if pay wasn't the only reason for the outsourcing. Bethune say's it was everything but only brings up pay. The other thing needed to be asked was how much money has been given away in guaranteed profits to these regionals rather than doing the flying themselves. How many years did it take for Continental give away the money they made on the sale of ExpressJet in guaranteed profits to them and Chautauqua? You and I may not like the amount of scope that has been given away but scope has worked. It's the mindset of the people behind it that need changing. |
Originally Posted by Beagle Pilot
(Post 779427)
What happens when all or most of the regionals are consolidated into one or a few companies? The price could easily be higher for those majors needing feed than if they had a wholly owned subsidiary. |
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
(Post 779533)
You create a company like Compass so that you don't have to pay 12+ year salaries for CA's (and FO's) . You can start everyone out at 1st year pay and then later sell off the company and start over.
The key point being, sell them off to whom and what happens next? It shouldn't be a surprise to any experienced airline pilot that the independent regional airlines are consolidating. I expect it will be down to less than a handful, if that many, over the next 10-15 years. IIRC, at one time UAL had thirteen different feeders. This looks nice to management on paper, all the whipsawing is great for keeping down prices. The problem is when one of those feeders goes on strike, out of business or is grounded by the FAA. Didn't United once lose all of their flights to the Dakotas and Montana because one 10-plane airline went out of business? I don't understand all the regs involved, but it takes time for the FAA to approve "new" routes for an airline to take over an area. The loss of operational flexibility by have several different airlines instead of only a few can hurt an airline's competitive edge just as badly as having only one. Hate to say this, folks, but if I were boss, I'd always have at least two feeders to play off each other. In the case of Eagle, I'd give 85-90% of the flying to the wholly-owned but outsource the remaining 10-15% to another large, reliable "regional" such as RAH or SKYW, to keep the Eaglets in line. Further, I'd put that contracted feeder at every hub even if it was only a few flights a day. This isn't 1999 anymore. We don't have dozens of feeders looking for business and willing to do anything for work. Times have changed and the airlines who adapt with the change will excel and those who don't will falter. |
Originally Posted by Stratosphere
(Post 775723)
I know what you mean about UAL. My cousin applied to them at that time a white male USCG acadamy graduate with an BS in Electrical Engineering was a C130 commander flying search and rescue out of Kodiak AK. Had plenty of hrs..UAL would not give him the time of day. But I know they did hire a female Embry Riddle grad with DC-3 time and around 600 hrs and put her in the DC-10 FE seat..I know UAL lost a concent decree and had to step up minority hiring but still the hired low time pilots no matter how you slice it.
Keep that in mind and you'll go further in this career than by believing the bitter little people who spread rumors.:) |
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