Mainline/Express - scope problem solved.
 

Just an idea for a resolution to the problem of scope.

The main carrier contracts other airlines to fly their routes....and this is reasonable, because the cost and liability of buying the aircraft and operating them..etc would be too much. The big problem...the pilots are all separate groups,separate training standards, seniority list (when mainline furloughs express pilots still flying)...etc. Let the main carrier contract out the express planes...they can take the expense and liability of owning the aircraft and they can make money for that. Make all the pilots mainline...that should be good for all. The main carrier gets the benefit of someone else taking the risk of owning the aircraft and the benefit of setting the training standards...the pilots get and increased pilot base....so when furlough time comes the ax falls on the new hire express pilots....as it should.

Do you think pilots came up with the idea to keep the groups separate?

No. But they did agree to it.

And they keep them separate. Look at all the threads where legacy pilots blame the industry woes on regional pilots then go on to plan how they'll take back the flying from regional pilots. The war goes on.

At the time all this was happening, pretty much, yes.
I have worked at two "mainline" carriers. At both the management pilots and the senior pilots I spoke with were against any integration of the lists as it would lead to "inferior" pilots already hired at the regional to be on our exalted seniority list.
Even though both regionals were very small, and we would be taking over the hiring process, it was something the mainline powers would not even consider.
When I speak of "powers" , i am including the influential pilot groups as well.
It is difficult to foresee long term consequences.
Perhaps now is the time? Perhaps now is also the time to consider(again) a national seniority list, if not by carrier, at least by union.
It would not be something that management would give away..it would be something that the current line holders at the majors would have to buy. Is it worth it to them? In the past they have seemed to say no. Maybe that now the results are more apparent, they will reconsider.

Mainline pilots did not agree directly to keep the pilot group separate but by agreeing with the management to outsource CRJ jobs to various regionals, the senior pilot groups at respective major airlines such as UAL, DAL, AA have in effect created a separate pilot roster.

Airline management are in a win win situation as they have successfully created an endless supply of C payrate pilots with substandard work rules. Fewer jobs at the mainline means lower overhead. This strategy has been advocated for the last 15 years or so by every Ivy League MBA programs.

I have always suggested that airlines like SKW own the jet and a DAL mainline pilot sit in the seat. Heck they could even be run on the mainline cert. If that is to much of stretch, we can fly across certificates.

YES....

Because the military pilots would have to go to the bottom of the RJ pilots list and they want/need to be able to bypass the "B scale" system develpoed by the legacy carrier unions.

MD80, I know this is not popular, but I really do not care about a pilot that does not pay association dues. It is our associations job to protect those that are members in good standing, not pilots that are not even active airline pilots.

That said, not getting the military candidate because of the 20 dollar an hr start will cause the airlines to raise their starting wage, and as a result the pay progression will be flatter the first few years.

Are you trying to tell me there is no politics in ALPA?

Pilot unions at the legacy carriers have been around for 50+ years and were mainly ex-military guys. They helped build the airlines and the ALPA policies.

The military has a good old boy club and will try to support each other.

Trust me I know. The simple fact is that it is political. The fact is that the amount of military pilots that will be apply will go down greatly going forward as most will be UAV programs.

I understand your feelings on this.. I really do. I think the "blame" of the regional pilots on the industry woes is really frustration that is exacted on the wrong people. I'm not saying it is right nor am I defending it, but I think the regional guys are unfortunately a convenient target for the frustration of the legacy pilots. That being said, I do hope that you realize if that flying is "taken back" by the legacy carriers, it means more jobs at the legacies and that translates to a better opportunity for you and other regional pilots. I truly believe that those legacy guys would much rather have you slinging gear here than doing it at whatever regional you might be flying for now.. Be patient.. it is a long process unfortunately.

Bwaaaa haaaaa haaaaaa Anybody that would say that should be drug tested immediately.

The rest of your argument is just silly though. Got any proof other than conjecture?

So when a plane goes down for a mechanical reason, the contract company gets sued... got it.

However, since "pilot error" will always be a contributing factor, mainline will still lose their shirt since they hire, train, and pay the pilots.

They need to distance themselves from the plane, the maintenance, and the pilots.

Not really. Mainline did not "agree with management to outsource CRJ jobs"...the jobs and pilots were already in place at Comair when they started transitioning from props to jets...in my opinion ALPA missed the boat completely in not understanding the potential impact of the RJ and its been the dilemma of "the horse already out of the barn" problem....mainline has not agreed to outsource as much as they have been mostly ineffectual in stemming the loss of jobs through scope.

Proliferation of UAV programs notwithstanding, the supply of military pilots wanting to pursue this career is rapidly approaching zero.

Read the following article. A good article on the future of mainline/regional scope:

Will US mainline pilots cede more ground to regional airlines?

I don't agree with everything written but he does accurately portray what had transpired.

The only way to do for the mainline pilots to take it back would be to do it cheaper. A new race to bottom. In the end, they'll lose because the regional pilots will always be able to do it for less because there will always be new pilots eager for jobs who'll do it for less. The only solution which would work is for the mainline pilots to bring their regional pilots into the group instead of competing with them. Once this is done, both groups will be fighting on the same side instead of against each other.

I do not think most legacy pilots blame the regional pilots themselves (well maybe some of those rjdc nubs)...but you are correct, the goal is to "take back" the flying, and increase the number and quality of mainline jobs.

Easy to say, but a lot harder to do when management won't go along. It's not just the pilots, it every other work group that's working on the cheap.

Sadly, in many ways I think you are right. However, I think if the legacies can at least hold the line on scope, and watch the 50 seaters bleed out then maybe the additional 70+ jets that the managements need will be seen in legacy paint. I hate talking like that because I am sensitive to the fact that that means loss of jobs at the regional level. Believe me, I am not at all callous about that. My hope is that the two events will somehow coincide with a better economy, and management's hand will be forced into bringing them here. THAT is the perfect storm that we have all longed for. My fear is [deleted political comments] Here's to positive thoughts.

I agree with everything you said except that ALPA is a wide body senior CA's Union. It has always been that way. If senior pilots running ALPA wanted it, regional pilots would have been brought on board mainline list long time ago. SkyWest has over 200 CRJ200s. Pinnacle has many CRJ200s. So does ASA. After their contract expires, which won't be for another 5 to 10 years, God only knows what the state of this industry will be. Future does not bode well for junior mainline and regional pilots.

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I have seen that article and I disagree with an important theme of his re the proliferation of rj flying through relaxed scope:

"....This did not result from some stingy, scrooge-like effort by management; it was standard operating labour procedures that used scope liberalisation as currency to wrest gains for mainline pilots, which ultimately came at the expense of their regional counterparts. With friends like that..…as the saying goes...."

The framework for the explosion of regional flying was already in place when the RJ came along, scope has been relaxed most recently to protect on the downside rather than to "wrest gains", and its hard to make the case that relaxing scope has come at the "expense" of regionals.

All that being said, I agree with him that negotiations in the immediate future will be enormously important, and I have the feeling that for mainline pilots, protecting scope will be of the utmost importance to take priority over all else.

Pilots have been, for the longest time, their own worst enemies. Those senior, well placed pilots, have finally made some headway in the rat race, and therefore are afraid of losing what they have worked hard for (and understandably so.) Junior guys are only too happy to enhance their resumes and salary levels (also understandably so.)

Consequentially, those senior pilots who have the advantage - shaky though that advantage may be, are concerned with: dooming their own careers, losing what has taken them a lifetime to build, and jeopardizing their chances of further advancement, by making attempts at leveling the playing field. Whilst junior pilots are simply trying to see their career goals come to fruition - also concerned with contributing to the leveling of the playing field because such actions may require short-term discomfiture, or a stalling of their own careers. In relatively rare and completely unforgivable situations, we have pilots turning scab in order to obtain one of four things or any combination thereof: a better salary/work rules, the left seat, the flying of the newest and "best" equipment/schedules/routes, or simply to keep flying and thus keep the almighty logbook growing.

The power to make a change passes from pilot group to pilot group. Each time a pilot group enters contractual renegotiation, they not only represent the interests of their own community, but the welfare of the entire American pilot community. The choices the current spotlight pilot group makes, the victories won, and the concessions lost set a standard by which corporate types and government mediators form their positions - and let's not be naive, the government has not made a habit of acting in our favor; the evidence is in the Railway Labor Act, and past mediated decisions.

Scope and Open Skies with foreign airlines are the two issues most dangerous to all our careers. Pay, work rules, and benefits are all moot, if we wake up one day to have a bunch of Chinese (no offense intended to actual Chinese-Americans or Chinese pilots working in the US) operated airlines, with Chinese pilots, flying Chinese built RJs, for Chinese wages.

Only by restricting Scope can the mainline be expanded, can mainline pilots be secured, and can new pilots be brought to mainline operations. Let us not be concerned with "taking back" flying; rather, let us recognize an enemy to all airline pilots, whether they be mainline, regional or cargo. This common enemy is Scope. Only by realizing that past concessions, deals, etc., is water under the bridge, can we set about applying positive action - and therefore causing the extermination of this mutual enemy.

It is my opinion, that should a contractual renegotiation end with a powerful restriction on Scope, but only a two dollar raise in pay, then it was a good negotiation with a lot of ground gained. Just as with anything else, the road to recovery is not traveled in one giant flying leap, but many smaller, more manageable steps. We all know ALPA isn't going to represent our best interests without a strong and unified voice from all pilots.

My envisioning of future Scope clauses is such: Jet aircraft to be flown by contracted carriers are limited to legs less than 800 nautical miles, restricted from connecting two major cities (i.e. New York and Chicago), restricted to 50 seats or less, and restricted to operating no more than two flights between the same two points per day. Turbo Prop aircraft flown by contracted carriers are limited to legs 400 nautical miles or less (a better definition of "regional" flying), and limited to 50 seats or less, as well as restrictions on specific cities pairings per the judgment of individual mainline pilot groups.

Now, I know that most mainline guys don't want to be bothered flying the small aircraft, much less a turboprop - but consider that those aircraft would be junior aircraft, and also consider how much hiring a mainline airline would have to do in order to staff their small aircraft needs. Also consider that payrates more appropriate would be able to be negotiated, under such a scheme.

I know talk is cheap, but at least its just my two cents.

So you are admitting defeat? Management wins, more 70 seat or larger flyig is lost and the regionals just grow larger.

The big kicker is... how do we make it an incentive for management to even begin to want to fold in the outsourced flying?

Why would they want to give up their ultimate weapon against us all? The value of the whipsaw is virtually priceless.

I am absolutely 100% for taking back scope completely... Down to making the big concession on our end of just stapling the RJ drivers instead of having them go through screening in order to join. I have yet to have a practical idea on how to motivate management to give back the outsourcing.

THAT is the $64,000 question.

This might be true... to a point... the union can only tell the company what the conditions are for which we will perform the work. We cannot control things like what airplanes the company chooses to buy, where they choose to fly them, executive compensation.. etc etc. With that in mind, unless we are willing to completey bend over and basically fly for free, the decision has... had to be made as to how low we would go as mainline pilots in order to get that work.. and even then there is no guarantee that the company would have bought those airplanes. I agree that this was a tactical mistake because of the proliferation of those jets and the ability of managements to be able to whipsaw all the companies against each other. I still maintain that it is misplaced anger to blame the mainline pilots for the woes at the regionals because those pilot groups signed their own contracts.. which are substandard.. and the downward spiral gains speed... sorry for the ramble..

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Part of the problem is the idea that mainline pilots are superior to regional pilots. Several of our captains have thousands of hours more flying experience then many mainline first officers. Why would they give up their pay, seat and job security to be stapled behind someone with years less experience?

If you really want to merge both groups, then both groups will have to want to merge. Regional newhires will jump at the chance to be stapled, but the senior half of most pilot lists will not. They'll fight it. Without their cooperation, it will never happen.

Actually, mainline pilots could take it all back in less than a week. All they have to do is grind the airline to a halt until management puts the planes back on the list. Management is NOT going to fold the airline over scope issues, at worst they will park the 50-76 seat jets and not fly them.

The problem with scope recapture is a numbers game. Take for example DAL if you put the 7000+ DCI pilots back on the list, they are going to want mainline pay. Money doesn't grow on trees, that money has to come from somewhere, and that's out of the senior pilot's paycheck.

FACT: This industry is exactly the way pilots want it, they show up to work, and vote yes on these substandard contracts. Most of NWA concessions were given back voluntarily before the bankruptcy of 2005.

You can say you're taking it back till you're blue in the face, it isn't going to change anything unless ACTION is taken.

“Labor built today’s regional airline industry, but for all the wrong reasons and now the regional industry is too big. Airlines and labor have built a Ponzi scheme. The forecasts all point to aircraft in the 74- to 125-seat range for US domestic flying" said MIT International Center for Air Transportation Research Engineer, Bill Swelbar.

Nice crack pipe dream. What are the chances such a thing would really happen?

After the AWA/US Air merger debacle, who would have thought that two pilot groups could consummate a merger with relatively minor bloodletting and childish bickering?

Never say never. the perfect storm could happen. :D

It would be IMHO at least 10 years where those that were on the bottom and most effected by scope would be in a position to make the decisions.

If those currently at the merged regional had seat and domicile protection, I suspect most would support it.
Not having to worry about each upcoming contract between the regional and the mainline would be a nice bonus to any regional pilot, especially if he didn't have to worry about being bumped from his seat.

Management would give back all the outsourcing if the mainline pilot group was willing to "buy it" back. Probably not likely that the mainline ALPA would pay the price, but it is doable.

The thought I have heard though and through is that the cost is too high to buy it back outright, but it makes sense to get to a point where it is advantageous for the company to fold it back it.

I know where they are going with that, and a huge first step is federal law mandating mainline-esque duty limits. It sends the cost of regional airlines though the roof. If the proposed legislation goes though it will not greatly effect the mainline carriers but the regionals will have a heck of a time with it.

Which is exactly why it won't happen. First, there are enough complaints about "socialism" in our government without another law restricting capitalism through the re-introduction of airline regulation. Second, the increase on the cost of flying to the public would produce a public outcry. Unless federal law prevented an enterprising airline from providing cheaper ticket prices, capitalism would produce a solution for this public need.

Beagle, I am not talking about re-regulation. I am talking about duty day based upon report time and duty in the circadian window. (Rest Rules) That is a safety function and the public is fine when it appears to regulate safety.

I have always said re-regulate it or get your hands completely out of it. The government does a horrible job of picking winners and losers.