This is how it was "splained" to me. Again, ask your guys...

1. IF CAL hires a furloughed UAL pilot AND the furloughed UAL pilot does not have to resign his number at UAL then the furloughed pilot would be on both lists.

2. We know from past precedent that the seniority number he gets will be based on the snapshot date...iow, he will be a UAL pilot for sli purposes.

3. If the merger fails for any reason, then said pilot is a CAL pilot on the bottom of the CAL list.

Sled,

I knew a married couple that both worked at USair. When they were furloughed in 2002, they both got hired at AWA. They retained their seniority numbers at USair. When the merger happened, they both had 2 spots on the merged list. Obviously it worked out better for them to use their AWA seniority numbers.

Nobody knows what that snapshot of the lists will look like...its all up for negotiation.

I would say, if CAL starts hiring, that a UAL furlough would take the job at CAL. It gets them back flying and a place on the list. Once they are "recalled" by UAL they will look at where they are on the list as a recalled pilot and probably take that # because it will come with a pay raise (longevity) and probably won't cost them any seniority.

Sure they do!!!

In this case, The SNAPSHOT is what was TAKEN (or dated back to) at the DATE of when the Merger was announced, May 3rd, 2010...it's Black & White. The SNAPSHOT is not up for negotiation (HOWEVER, it WILL be varified-IE: DOH, Leaves, COLAs, Furloughs, ect). It's one of the tools/variables that is used by both Negotiating Committee's from the respective carrier's when coming up with the final SLI concerning the two companies post merger single list.

1) As I stated earlier in a round about way, I think we have a "semantic's" issue:). Hired to another company (CAL->UAL or UAL->CAL), I fully understand your point.....but recalling a pilot from company to go 'fly' for the 'other' while the SLI is unresolved (along with the list of other variables that I gave earlier) does not work. The only point I was trying to make. If I misunderstood you from the outset, I apologizes:D

2) Agreed.

3) You are correct. Under that circumstance of a failed merger, the 'pilot' who is hired at CAL (Furloughed/or off the street) would be a CAL pilot with CAL number. If that same pilot was also furloughed from UAL, they would still have a number at UAL too.
Case-n-point....there is a pilot at CAL who is hired in 2006. She is Furloughed from UAL with a 2001 UAL number. That pilot would fall right into the mentioned example. Post SLI would then/& only then have two slots (so to speak) in which to evaluate their 'better'/or final seniority.

Horse is dead :)

ahhhh. I wasn't thinking of that!! She has a legit claim to both lists. I was referring to someone hired at CAL after the merger announcement date while still furloughed from UAL.

It will be interesting to see where she ends up on the list.

That's the only one that I personally know of. I'm sure with all the UAL furloughs and CAL's hiring in the mid-2000's, there has to be other's like the above mentioned case.

For sure.....will be interesting to see how those cases bode!

None of it will be simple. I've already accepted the fact that the UAL furloughees are my union brothers. I just can't see anyone else flying our iron.

I believe the "snapshot" is up for interpretation. We expect it to be the date of the announcement, but I believe the arbitrator has the final say.

The usually use the date of "Constructive Notice." It was the date we used for the DAL-NWA merger.

Pilots hired after this date when DOH on the arbitrated award.

Disagree.

The Snapshot is Black & White. It's as the list's (UAL's & CAL's) STOOD on May 3rd of this year. If your Seniority on your respective list was at "X"%, that's where you were. There is no need to "interpret" your seniority number on your respective list.....does not get much closer to Black & White.

As I expressed earlier, the SNAPSHOT is just a tool/variable that is provided to both committee’s (from UAL & CAL) to use in their various formulas to derive in what each believes to be a 'fair' SLI (Prior to Arbitration) proposal.

Summary, a SNAPSHOT is just that, each carrier's Seniority List as of May 3rd....However, the SLI is w/o a doubt "up for interpretation". Nothing new here, we have seen this to some degree in just about every merger.

You are correct in saying "The Arbitrator has the final say", and that final say would be by way of a finished product known as ‘the SLI’.

Casually submitted for your perusal...

One size will fit all - chicagotribune.com

Looks like they got the most junior Pilot hire date figures reversed.

Another stellar piece of accurate 'reporting' from today's Media at the Tribune.

At least they figured out the 'correct' companies in the mix!

So, since we are "combining" companies, can't we also just COMBINE the pay?? I mean 12yr CA pay + 12yr CA pay = one outstanding place to start. :D

Then we'll have to "agree to disagree" on this one.

Quote:

---

The Snapshot is Black & White. It's as the list's (UAL's & CAL's) STOOD on May 3rd of this year. If your Seniority on your respective list was at "X"%, that's where you were. There is no need to "interpret" your seniority number on your respective list.....does not get much closer to Black & White.

As I expressed earlier, the SNAPSHOT is just a tool/variable that is provided to both committee’s (from UAL & CAL) to use in their various formulas to derive in what each believes to be a 'fair' SLI (Prior to Arbitration) proposal.

Summary, a SNAPSHOT is just that, each carrier's Seniority List as of May 3rd....However, the SLI is w/o a doubt "up for interpretation". Nothing new here, we have seen this to some degree in just about every merger.

You are correct in saying "The Arbitrator has the final say", and that final say would be by way of a finished product known as ‘the SLI’.

---

When you talk to merger committee members they're very hesitant to speak in absolutes because next to nothing is "black and white." For example, I believe one of the points of contention about the award in the US Air/AWA integration was that US Air had recalled pilots prior to the merger announcement, but they hadn't been staffed yet. Nicolau didn't consider them recalled, another arbitrator might have, especially if US Air had been more willing to negotiate.

Like you, I expect the date of the announcement to be where the "snapshot" is taken, it's just I have specifically been told by a merger committee member that it is not absolute.

I was under the impression that when UAL started recalling, you either HAD to come back, or RESIGN your number at UAL. SO how did said person stay at CAL, AND keep the UAL number?:confused:

here's a little look back to how it was done once in the past:

When the CAL strike went down, many pilots just left. Some found their way to places like New York air, People's Express, Frontier (not the current post deregulation start up also known as Frontier). All those airlines eventually got merged back into CAL. Much to the scab's chagrin, after the strike was "over" (deemed failed by ALPA national) a federal judge said all of the full term strikers that never "resigned" could go back to CAL at their original Date of Hire seniority in a legal ruling known as the "Order and Award". (by the way longevity had nothing to do with it)

Meanwhile the aforementioned companies had all been merged. Most of those pilots now had two seniority slots on the list. The crappy one that was handed to them by the Lorenzo era management that moved to staple lists to the bottom to continue to reward the scabs and the order and award one that the federal judge gave them back.

As a side bar, CAL management at the time did all sorts of nasty tricks to continue to punish the strikers. They didn't staff them where seniority would let them fly. They made 20 year Captains fly in the right seat with scabs because "a slot wasn't available". They made Denver people go to Newark... on and on it went in a 1984esque re-socialization. Before returning under order and award, pilots who struck had to sign several release forms promising not to cause harm to the company and/or the scabs and to basically "behave".

Anyhow the point of all this is that, if CAL were to hire and picked up a few people on the UAL furlough list, precedent exsists that those people would more than likely have the option of either number once the lists were combined.

Has anyone considered the fact that many of us will have to sit through a week of INDOC?!!!!!

Don't count it. Count on 1-2 years of training by memo.....

That would be preferable.

Nothing like a CAL scab heading a union committee(s). Hopefully the UAL folks will correct this enormous error in judgment because in the end IT'S NOT OKAY!!!

didn't answer my question. The pilots that were at CAL (furloughed from UAL) once called back to UAL had the choice to come back to UAL, or RESIGN their number at UAL and stay at CAL. Thus only a CAL number. Is this correct?
NOT talking about now. I am talking about the ones previous to all this merger talk.

Also all CAL pilots have to complete 20 hours of arrogance training as part
of this deal

Several Pilots have both numbers. A lot of guys were furloughed from UAL when hired by CAL. Some were activated during UAL's recall. By the time they were released from active duty, UAL had already stopped recalls and began to furlough another 1,400+ guys. I know several guys in this category. What a mess. I really feel bad for what the UAL guys have gone through, but "career expectations", YGTBSM?

I got a chuckle out of that, too bad it's so sad. How low can you go ...?

Bus....

It's far from 'unusual' that some pilots at CAL who were hired in the mid-late 2000's hold valid/current Seniority Numbers at 'other' carriers by way of their furloughed status from their "previous" employer.

CAL (unlike some companies in the past during hiring booms) DID NOT require a "newhire" to resign their Seniority number at their previous companies while being on furlough from a former carrier. I have flown with multiple pilot's (from AA & LCC) who still hold Un-Resigned Seniority numbers at the above mentioned carriers.....still on the Seniority List and COULD be recalled (assuming their recall rights were still w/in the vaild window for that specific carrier)

Now....."HER" story is as follows.....She holds a Seniority Number from UAL back in 2001. Sometime after that, she was given a furlough from UAL. Flash forward.....she was hired by CAL late 2005/begining of 2006. When UAL did have their 'small window' of hiring in 2007 (or 2008??), she was offered a recall for which she bypassed. Those who are 'more' in the 'know' about UAL's recall rights can speak more specifically to this, please do so.

IF UAL furloughs HAD to return when being recalled, or face loosing their numbers, then how come there's still 1400+guys on furlough when UAL DID HIRE off the street in your last "small window" in 2007 (or into 2008??)??? Does not make sense.

Again, can you explain how this happens??

Your correct, it maybe a "Agree to Disagree":cool:

When using the broad stroke of things being B&W in negociations, I agree, not ALL things are B&W when dealing with a merger. Now, if we step back and look at the specific point of what a SNAPSHOT is, it's just that, simply a picture at a point in time.....in this case "what & who" was THERE & how they stood on MAY 3rd.

You draw an elligant example of furloughs being reinstated prior to the merger, but NOT being in place/staffed by the AWA/USA merger date.....but NOT the case here. There were NO recalls/bids/or hiring for a year PLUS prior to the May 3rd announcment that can be offered up for 'interpretation' when looking at the respective list's. (Now I DO UNDERSTAND and expect that the SNAPSHOT WILL serve as a 'starting' point when factoring COLA's, LOA's, Furloughs, ect.)

Some may argue that B&W can easily become 'gray' when looking at the LCC example that you set forth.....but in CAL/UAL's case, the lists were 'solid' for a year PLUS prior to the announcment (barring retirments off both lists and UAL's late 2009 furlough), how can the SNAPSHOT itself not be B&W on 'Announcment Day'??

Again....Agree to Disagree.;)

Will pose that question on the 18th at the meeting. The Neg Comm 'should' be present from what the IAH LEC Chair shared yesterday.

"IF UAL furloughs HAD to return when being recalled, or face loosing their numbers, then how come there's still 1400+guys on furlough when UAL DID HIRE off the street in your last "small window" in 2007 (or into 2008??)??? Does not make sense."


????
UAL recalled. Some came back, some didn't. From what I understand, those that didn't come back after the "mandatory" recall, had to resign number with UAL. So, UAL then saw they needed to hire because not enough came back, and future retirements coming up.
After Prater and Bush got the age 65 thing passed, and the economy started tanking, UAL decided to park airplanes and furlough AGAIN. So the new hires, and the less senior got furloughed.
What does not make sense?

I understand the activation thing A320 fumes was saying. That makes sense. As far as the last comment though...
You don't think the career expectations of UAL pilot was HIGH? Best contract at the time, quick upgrades, and wide bodies (real ones).
I would love to see what some of CAL pilot's "career expectations" were before Bethune came in...
Not a UAL vs. CAL thing. It's a "mine is bigger than yours" thing that REALLY bugs the ---- out of me....
EVERY airline has had it's good times and bad...

SoCal/Bus, After UAL's first furlough (9/11) everyone was recalled. You were allowed to bypass on the way down the seniority list but had to come back or resign on the way back up. It was after this that UAL hired off the street. I believe at that time you could also "comeback"(ie not resign your number) and go on a leave of absence(LOA). Many pilots stayed out on Mil leave but they also allowed pilots who were on "contracts" to fly for other carriers up to 2 years on a LOA. Since UAL furloughed so quickly after the first recall was completed it is possible for someone furloughed from UAL, to go to CAL, then when recalled by UAL go on a LOA and then get furloughed during second UAL furlough. Hence, they have a number at both airlines. At least that is my best guess.

You couldn't be more correct whn it comes to good times and bad times. Unfortunetly (or fortunetly depending who u ask) "career expectations" are looked at from the snap shot as well.

I know the person in question about UAL and CAL seniority numbers. Won't it be a moot point since her '05 CAL hire date will almost definetly give her a much better position??? I would assume she could use either one.

I acknowledge your points. As matter of fact, almost 10 years ago to date, I was expecting the same. I was a USAir guy going through the same thing that I'm going through at CAL; a merger with UAL. I hope you will acknowledge that I should know a little about career expectations. I hope we get this thing to arbitration as soon as possible. A 20% pay raise and CAL's scope, at minimum, should make us all whole and return United to what we both acknowlege was the Airline to work for. Godspeed!

UAL was indeed the airline to work for in the late 90's, but that is not an exclusive list. At some time during the last 50 years TWA, Pan Am, AMR, DAL , Southwest, FDX, UPS and probably others, have been "the airline to work for." It is a fleeting and meaningless characterization and that is the problem. We need to return the "career" to the what it was for all mainline US carriers, not just one Pilot group, or it will again be a fleeting characterization.

I agree that a 20% raise and solid scope are an absolute minimum for the combined UAL/CAL pilot group. You guys have the most leverage now as a pilot group that you may ever have - use it wisely.

Good Luck - we are all counting on you!

Scoop

-----------

Scoop;

Just to tag on, You folks probably have more leverage right now than you realize. Think wildest dreams and reel it back in a little kind of leverage.

Best to you all
Scambo

Tony.....Thanks for the insight/info.

[QUOTE=
You don't think the career expectations of UAL pilot was HIGH? Best contract at the time, quick upgrades, and wide bodies (real ones).
I would love to see what some of CAL pilot's "career expectations" were before Bethune came in...
Not a UAL vs. CAL thing. It's a "mine is bigger than yours" thing that REALLY bugs the ---- out of me....
EVERY airline has had it's good times and bad...[/QUOTE]

I think "WAS" is the active word here. If CAL and UAL had merged back then
things would have been different, but thats not how it went.

CAL consistently wins awards for customer service from JD Power, Conde Nast, etc. Rated as one of the top companies to work for by Forbes how many years running?

They have the newest fleet, with more on the way, and actually are taking delivery of 787's shortly. Bethune came on board what 12 years ago now, and has been gone for 5 or 6 ? Maybe UAL should have hired him.

Look at how ratty a lot of the UAL airplanes are. Their 75's aren't even etops
and they have old software with the FMA stuff scattered at the bottom of the
PFD. Smaller Pratt & Whitneys. I remember riding in one about 5 or 6 years ago while the CA arrogantly told me how "they were gonna buy us" and I'd "look good in blue"

So its a little more than luck, and if I had a chance to do it all again I'd still be at CAl instead of UAL. My career expectations are and continue to be better.

Speedtape,

As a DAL guy I don't have a dog in this hunt but it appears to me you are referring to things that makes an airline better for passengers vice pilots. Pilots in a merger care mostly about who is bringing what jobs to the table.

All the awards and shiny new planes are great. but the number and quality of pilot positions is the holy grail of criteria for deciding a SLI. Besides, you guys will probably go to arbitration and let a neutral third party decide - it worked fairly well for us at DAL.

Good Luck - Scoop

Actually career expectations is much more then seats. It is time to upgrade, retirements, and more

That's some amazing information considering that I personally flew a UAL ETOPS 757 from PLIH to KDEN last week. UAL uses 757's in scheduled service between the mainland and Hawaii and to Europe. So how do they do that non ETOPS?

Me thinks you don't know what the heck you are talking about.:rolleyes:

Airhose.....

Are ALL the B757-200's at UAL ETOPS??

SC

Can someone tell me why this is devolving into a 'my job/airline/plane/career/etc... is better than yours' style ****ing contest? Isn't there something better to be doing or talking about? This is the EXACT kind of nonsense that will lead us to failure. We should all CUT IT OUT when it starts to crop up. Remember, we are along for the ride...our respective mgmt teams decide where we go, WE decide how we're going to behave along the way.

We need to stand side by side as pilot groups and look Tilton and Smisek in the face and tell them what we demand in our contract. Bickering amongst ourselves only hurts our cause.

^^^^ Well Said...

Back to the CBA...