Correct, but that is basically what I meant. Seats, jobs, upgrades etc - not what a/c is running P&W vs. GE.

Scoop

"Ahhhh, Mr. Arbitrator....our airplanes are nicer, we win Conde Nast awards, and gosh darn it, people like us! Please rule in our favor!

Great.

Can't see where that really matters......:confused:

Who cares????

Johnny's dad bought him a nicer car when he turned 16....How does that affect where Johnny fits on the football team roster?

NW MEC tried to convince the arbitrators to place their pilots ahead of DAL pilots under the concept of "SUPER PREMUIM WIDEBODY FLYING". The arbitrators didn't buy it.

However, all of this is moot until you have a JCBA.


Don't fall into the SLI first trap. (I would highly recommend encouraging your leaders to adopt the DAL/NWA method of using a panel of 3 neutral arbitrators and ONLY letting them rule on things that the two merger committees disagree upon.)

*Side note: the US, AWA merged list and methodology is actually remarkably similar to the DAL/NW merger, but a big difference was that a joint contract was never decided upon before the list.

Nah Just go ahead and put a bunch of unemployed guys ahead of me, I mean its not like I don't also have a family and a mortgage, Plus they're UAL pilots, they should always get the top position !

Seriously, I was willing to accept relative position SLI, even though what I can do at UAL at 68 ish % is way less than what I can hold now. Then I hear all of this bluster and I think fine.., they want to fight about who is the better healthier airline, so be it.

Well at least we know there's more than one opinion. Cant say I've read a post that I take issue with more than this one.

Because the team coach is sympathetic to Johnny's dad who belongs to the same country club. Yeah, there's better players on the team, but this is the stuff scholarships are made of. They've been card playing, pool shooting drinking buddies since High School too, so when Johnny's dad bought the new car, the first thought through his mind was going to the coaches dad's dealership...(of course he pretended not to be able to find the dealership in the phone book, so he called the coach and the conversation went like this... "Hey Coach! How ya been? Listen, I've been thinking about buying Johnny a new car this year now that he's driving. Does your family still have that car dealership business? Ya know, Johnny's trying out for football again this year, and I want to make sure he can get to and from practice...")

The arbitrator didn't buy it because not everyone likes the ultra long haul, nor does it pay anymore than domestic flying. I'd done it, even got a T-shirt (and a hat), been to many a place that I don't ever care to get back to...dehli, bishkek, kuwait, mumbai... Throw in some volcanoes and a few religiously motivated events and you'll be surprised at just how senior and fun domestic transcons can be.

I'd rather see the list first. Your place on "the list", fence agreements and the structure of the airline as it unfolds, will determine how important the contract will become.

Trap? Some of us don't feel so. Under Jeff, you can bet your bippie you don't want to be relatively junior on any equipment. I haven't seen the solidarity needed to get a good enough contract to equal out getting hosed in a twisted SLI.

Pretty sure "my leaders" have had their own minds made up on how they would handle this thing long before they got elected. It's the way politicians operate.

Also convinced that the final JCBA will look a lot more like what Jeff has in mind than what any of us think it will look like. I'd certainly be willing to change that, but the costs of doing so outweigh the resolve of most pilots on either list.

Survey a few Cactus East pilots next time you bump into one of them. I bet they talk about seniority preservation long before they get around to discussing CBAs.

Good afternoon "Jonny Raincloud" & "Sensitive Salley".....

The questions was simple and just that.....Are ALL the B757-200's at UAL ETOPS?? Was not sure since I have heard both ways.

What do your rants/raves have to do with the above question??? Simple question just needs a simple answer 'amigos'....YES or NO would sufice.:rolleyes:

Thanks for your time!!:cool:

WOW.....

You, as well as the two mentioned above, are truely unbelieveable. Attitudes & personalities displayed such as that 'really' reinforce warm fuzzy's of wanting to get together and 'work' together as we 'go-forth'.

NOT KNOWING ANYTHING about UAL's B756 fleet.....I asked a simple questions about UAL's B757-200's being ETOPS approved or NOT. You (and others) go off on a tangent of this being a 'personal attack' of someone chest beating their watch is bigger than yours!!!

STOP being hyper-sentitive and just read the valid question that could be replied with a simple answer.

Cooler heads prevail.....EVERYONE needs to check ego/attitude at the door please.

Thank you.

Can't speak for Shiznit, but I intuited that you were going down the road that "If they aren't all ETOPS, then somehow it should weigh negatively against what is brought to the merger." My bad in misreading your intention.

Personally the only dog I got in this fight is to see both sides devolve into the USair/AWA debacle. Hold the PWA hostage to the SLI. In the end, it weakens another competitor.

However, that's not the case. For each competitor that is weakened through employee strife, it only emboldens management at all carriers, and makes life that much worse for all of us.

Put the "my airline is better than your airline" crap behind you and get the best PWA you can so everyone else can build on it. Then, once the SLI is arbitrated, accept the results, because, it will never be as good as you think it should be. Embrace your partners, because, for better or worse, you got to work with them for the rest of your career. You can either be one looking and going forward, or be a negative Nelly, looking backwards and *****ing about what could have been.

It's up to you guys, but for what it's worth, you are at a crossroads, and have a roadmap and clear picture of what the outcome can be at the end of each road.

I was thinking the same thoughts, thanks for summing it up JDMJ...


Having a JCBA before your SLI will help insure that "everybody" is going to fight for all parts of the contract....

SoCalGuy..
No, they are not all ETOPS.

Correct they are not all ETOPS.

Why the ell are you guys arguing about something you have no control over?

Should we start a thread about who should be the next leader of France too?

The MEC's have agreed to use a panel of three arbitrators to work out the issues that the merger committees can't agree on. The committees are chosen and we don't have any input. They will follow ALPA guidelines and do their best to argue for their respective pilot group. END of story.

Doing the JCBA before the SLI is damn smart. It reduces the company's ability to pit one section of the seniority list against the other in order to pass a barely acceptable TA.
We really should ALWAYS vote on a contract TA by putting ourselves in every seniority level and seat position. If ANYONE is getting screwed, vote NO!

As a CAL furloughed member...IF I'm recalled this summer and operate with the company until the lists are merged this would likely put me back on the furloughed list in short time if the SNAPSHOT you referenced was on May 3rd (before my potential recall) I would be operating at the company, furloughed again, and replaced by a UAL guy on their furloughed list...seems a little crazy to even think about returning to work for a few months just to get furloughed again. Any thoughts on this scenario?

Here's what we know at this time - Nothing! Stop driving yourself crazy. There is not enough information to form any future plan. For every option there is an alternative. I'll throw one out just to try to make you feel better. All furloughed pilots will be recalled. The merger will include a no-furlough clause for two years during which time attrition will correct any possible overstaffing. Hope this helps. Meanwhile, fire up the Bar-B, cut the grass. play golf, go fishing, read a book or two, take a class, etc. Life is far too short to be worrying about all the BS!

Johnny now has a nice car so he is now sleeping with the coach's daughter (and Johnny's mom is probably sleeping with the coach). Sounds like business as usual to me. ; )

ST..
Sounds like we've found the right man to teach this class....You. Between this and the misinformation you are spreading YOU are THE man for the job! Your posts are the very definition of arrogance.

First, my rant wasn't exactly directed at you, but at the path the discussion was going down.... Sorry I wasn't more clear about that.

If you read back a bit you'll find that speedtape threw out this line:

I think we can ALL agree that the comment above is a)wrong b)pointless c)incendiary d)petty. I could go on.

I do stand behind my post though. IMO your question about whether all of the UA 757s are ETOPS served no useful purpose....you should've let the topic die after Airhoss's retort to speedtape. Seriously, why would UA have a fleet of 97 ETOPS 757s?????????? All of this is one huge distraction and only serves to artificially divide us. How about some discussions on what specific contract items we like/dislike in our own CBA and how they compare to the other...or how we could fix them both!?

I'll start. We get 2.8hours per day for prescheduled vacation. If we get a vacation drop for an already scheduled trip, we get paid the credit time of the trip an the same number of vacation days as the trip. Example: I got a vacation drop for a 3 day Dulles - Moscow trip (3 days of vacation got 21hours of pay). However, vacation drops are at the whim of crew sked (actually a computer program :eek:) and usually are late notice. For scheduled vacation we get 2.8 hours/day. I'd like to see this fixed and get our hours per day of vacation up to something worthwhile (and still keep the vacation drop credit pay). PBS really doomed our previous vacation system!

One thing I'd like to keep as is at UAL is augmented crew rest seats! Each fleet is different, but we have a great deal in this arena. I'm a 767 f/o and we have the new IPTE 1st class suites. THAT is the way to get rest! We also have the bunkie working eastbound whenever he is required on the westbound segment of the same ID. That flight time counts against the scheduled max, so they can't abuse us too much (especially the reserves!). So we either have a bunkie each way or we have no bunkie (not very common).

Cheers

I have to say that I agree with the direction of this discussion going down hill. I am a CAL 777fo in EWR and I am just as concerned as anyone else on here about the seniority integration. I have refrained from posting while reading on this board trying to get a feel for what is happening.

Unfortunately, there is nothing we can accomplish on here by voicing our opinions on the ISL. If you are truly concerned then direct your questions, opinions or comments to your respective committee for the proper resolution. The seniority integration is something that is out of our individual control. We need to focus on building a better future together, to quote a show I like "live together, die alone".

That being said, I think we can use this board as a tool to build unity between us by discussing and better understanding each others sides. We have a common goal that we need to focus our collective attention to at this point and that is securing a solid future for OUR careers by attaining a joint contract that protects our jobs and increases our quality of life and helps us to advance this profession in the right direction towards what it used to be.

Now that adds something to the discussion that I was not aware of.. thank you. I believe the bunkie BOTH ways is something we lack at CAL (atleast on the 777, I can't speak for the 756 fleet) that would benefit us. Although we have senior f/o's that like the DH one way because it can help pad there line to a higher value, I believe that is a simple case of individual greed at the expense of the group (we tend to have alot of that at CAL from my vantage point). I am hoping that with our pilot groups combined we can help combat some of that mentality and start bringing unity back. Another example of individual greed at CAL is pilots picking up open time like crazy (once here or there in my opinion is acceptable but whoring it is going too far!) while we have pilots on furlough. We even went as far as having captains picking up trips as f/o's a couple years back to compensate for our airline being so understaffed. We also have far too many guys selling there vacation while we have pilots on furlough. There are numerous other scenarios like this.

I do have a couple questions..

1. I heard that UAL fo's are NOT type rated therefor requiring a 4 man augmented crew to consist of 2 captains and 2 fo's, is this true? (At CAL we have 1 captain and 3 fo's)

2. I heard that UAL has augmented crews for all flight across the Atlantic even if they are a smidge under 8 hrs, is this true? (At CAL we currently operate ewr-lhr on the 777 with only two pilots both ways; block time back to ewr is just under 8 hrs coming in at 7:50)


I am asking the above questions to better understand the situation. If we combine and these differences exist between us than they will have to be resolved by extra training on one side or more captains (preferable in my opinion) on the other side.

Also...

1. Do UAL 777's utilize the ECL (electronic checklist) for the QRH(abnormals) as well or only for normal checklists?

Good luck to all and I truly hope we can start working together to achieve unity.

All United FO's on all fleets are typed, I believe on augmented flights there is only one Captain regardless if it's single or double augmentation

True - Double augmented flights at UAL have only one Captain.

On the 777, we use the ECL for both normal and abnormal checklists. We also have a hard card QRC, (Quick Reference Checklist), for a few items, Evacuation, etc...

1. All UAl F/o's are type rated on all fleets now. They just started this on the narrow bodies about 3 years ago and some F/o's that went through initial training before that time on the A-320 still have an A-320 SIC only type but everybody else has a full type. The wide Body F/0's always have had a type,, all of them.

CFB...
I'll just confirm some of the above I was on the 777 as a line guy and an instructor for 7 years. There have been some charter flights which were fully augmented with two whole crews but never in scheduled service.

UAL uses one captain and 3 F/O's on double augmented flights. We have never done the two captain thing in regular service.

2. UAl does double augment on all Atlantic trips. There was a short time when we didn't but it's been changed back. The funny thing is that we don't double augment on many international flights that are longer that a LHR EWR crossing or some such. Go figure.

We utilize the ECL for all checklists on Both Normal and Non Normal and Emergency on the 777. There are some procedures that require the use of the paper QRH but that is the rare exception not the norm.

These are the types of things we need to be discussing on here not going back and forth on the SLI, which an arbitrator will decide. We need to concentrate on a strong JBCA, with great pay, work rules and most of all SCOPE.

Well said. Enough of the SLI mudslinging. Both sides will present their best case scenario to an Arbitrator and with the assistance of the ALPA neutrals, will render a decision.

Nothing to see here, keep moving please.

Alpa merger policy does not use Pilot neutrals anymore. There will be a list of ALPA arbitrators and each merger comm will strike off names until there are 3 remaining. Those 3 folks will decide the list, and we will all live with that ruling.

The JCBA is the thing we have some control over and should be the collective focus. SCOPE SCOPE SCOPE. This pendulum is about to swing back to Mainline, we will and must demand our jobs back from the outsourcing to express and Aer Fungus type JVs.

I have a request. In the spirit of unity, I'd like to see the term "bunkie" stricken from our jargon. It may imply "under-qualified" or "non-qualified" to employee groups beyond the pilots at large. Furthermore some employees may jump to the conclusion that a less than cautious captain allowed a "bunkie" to fly an airplane with passengers!!! Imagine!

I remember when UAL had the incident with the engine failure leaving SFO a little less than a decade ago. Rumors got started among CAL pilots (true or not) that a "bunkie" was flying the airplane when the EO profile wasn't followed and terrain clearance was less than optimal. As a follow on, many CAL pilots believed that UAL's "bunkies" were substandard when compared to CALs IRO counterparts.

IROs or extra pilots should be referred to as fully qualified non flying pilots, especially when discussing the augmented situation with customers and non-pilot employees.

What do ya'll think?

Just curious, on your augmented European flights someone referred to a "bunkie"...is that a "cruise only" -rated F/O?...If so, does that mean the "regular" capt. and f/o get more rest in cruise? (more rest than 1/3rd each of the cruise flight time?) Also someone mentioned "double augment" on short European trips..(under 12 hrs. block I assume)...how does that work? (I thought double aug. was only required on block greater than 12 hrs.)

Bunkie is the term we use to refer to the pilots assigned the non flying ID, (Trip). All pilots have the same qual's. Some of the non flying trips are very high time three day trips and go very senior. Rests are usually pretty even but the "Bunkie" almost always gets the first beak.

I've never been on a double augmented flight that was under twelve hours.

So who's got a new name for this position?

I agree with that thought:)

As previously posted, the TIC (Third in Command :D) is a fully qualified FO. Oftentimes I've been the TIC with a SIC junior to me. Doesn't matter to me since I still get paid the same! I just have to do the walkarounds:rolleyes:.

I think a cool, yet respectful nickname would be nice. I feel a bit stuffy referring to them as the 'nonflying FO'.....

Where do your crews layover in LHR? It might be nice to meet for ales in a local pub!

Now your talking. This alone should be a new thread.

I know a place in PVG where we can 24oz Tsingtaos for 20 RMB.:D

Thank you for all the responses. I had a feeling that stuff was not true. The captain I was flying with seemed to be a pretty negative guy and most of the stuff he said so far has turned out to be wrong. Looking forward to being the airline that can turn this profession around again. We have a great opportunity to turn things around and make big gains with our leverage this time around if we can fight together instead of against each other.

We do not have IRO's (International, Relief, Officers) at UAL every pilot is fully qualified and maintains landing currency on the airframe they hold.

Bunkie simply refers to the pilot who happens to be the non flying F/O on that leg. Many times the more senior F/O has bid the nonflying position for schedule etc....

Flight over 8 hours scheduled block require single augmentation, one extra F/O, Flights scheduled over 12 hours block require double augmentation.

And just to reiterate every pilot on the flight deck is current, qualified and type rated there are no cruise pilots at UAL.

I hope that answers your questions.

You guys need to fight for the DAL system of augmentation in your JCBA. Our third guy(Relief Pilot) flies both ways not just the way back. So we are augmented if any route segment is over 8 hrs block. Three guys over, three guys back. Makes those evening departures much more palatable.

Our 4 man crews are 2 Capt and two FO. Makes for more Capt positions in the 777 and ER and now the Whale and 330.

Hey Satchip,

Is staffing a contractual item at Delta?

Certainly all the CAL people know where I am going with this.

Yes, the 2 CA/2 FO is a contractual limit placed on the company. Forces them to have more captains. I believe that when NWA went to our staffing rules, the talk was that it required some 500 additional bodies or so.

Plus, as for the 3 man trips, the relief pilot (RP) is decided in the briefing between the two FOs. It usually works depends on who needs a landing. If the captain takes the first leg, then the FO who needs a landing will be the RP on the captain's leg, and then becomes the PF on the return, with the other FO becoming the RP. I've also had a captin who didn't need any landings and gave the two legs to the FOs. Works out good for all.

Bligh,

I am sure we can adapt to a one language fits all for both airlines. In the case of the SFO incident, if you believe the re-creation video we had to watch. The trip was saved by one of the "Bunkies" getting up out of his seat and directing the "Flying" FO on the proper control inputs. The Captain was terribly busy trying to switch from tower to dept :eek: so he was unable to direct anything..... Of course this Captain was about to retire at 60 and he would improve his skills much more if had been allowed to fly to 65 :D.

Many changes came of this event. Back in those days the senior pilots would bid the "Bunkie" Asia trips as they were the shorter higher time (no tag flying in Asia". The result was the senior pilots would just wait and go NQ for landings. The company would then send them to TK for a sim and give them VACA days credit for each day of Landings class. It was possible for a pilot to stay current, get 4-6 extra vacation days a year and never touch the controls in takeoff and landing. Like any good deal, you have some clown that will screw it up. Especially back in those days with rapid upgrades the top portion of the 400/777 list on the F/O side were filled with guys that could not pass the upgrade. They were to be lifetime F/O's. Not necessarily part of the EEO hiring group. Many were just old gompers that were marginal and never improved.

Since this took place the requirements to actually fly in the seat on active legs every ninety days and many other currency addendum items. Also, when they send a guy to TK for landings, if he is a line holder it is done on days off. No pay unless you are a reserve, then you get 5 hrs per day. This helps prevent the senior pilot from bidding bunkie to avoid flying. Sucks for the junior lineholders as they have a much more difficult time getting flying ID's and they are the ones that wind up going to TK for free most often.

L

Continental System Bid just announced
 

I don't know what kind of monthly bidding system UAL has, but it has to be better than the POS PBS that we have.

negative Ghost Rider, we too have pos PBS. Yet another concession from the bankruptcy. Actually, I like the ease of bidding with PBS. Couple of criteria and you are done. Beats looking thru 200 lines.:)