A320fumes

Typical, Jedi mind trick BS.

The vast majority of CAL and UAL have come to grips with the fact that the merger train has left the station and that our plights will be decided by 3 arbitrators in the near future. This is the third merger of major airlines that I have been a part of in my short 11 years as a Major airline pilot. I do get the fact that the very mention of my background, military status and CAL Sr is enough to elicit the age old "he's doesn't get it/ he's not one of us" stance. I'm quite familiar with this, so preach on. I embrace the fact that "I don't get it", please keep that coming.

To the UAL guys to whom I might have offended:

Please know that when all is said and done, I will stand their with the United pilot group. Unlike those who do "get it", I have not picked up one open trip, accepted one Jr Manning assignment or flew a single leg as a a CA in the right seat, even while on reserve.

Career expectations will likely be disappointing for 12,799 of us after the SLI. We need to make sure that Tilton/Smisek and Gang pay for whatever discomfort our pilot group have with the SLI and acknowledge that the future of UAL is directly related to the post SLI morale of the pilots. I acknowledge that the UAL pilot group, especially you very SR furloughees, have given up a lot more than most of the CAL pilots have ever had. I simply want management to compensate you for what you lost and not simply take it form Peter (CAL bottom 1/3rd) to pay Paul (the UAL furloughees).

Most of the guys on this thread who "get it" look towards low the low hanging fruit that is associated with what the other pilot group has. I want you be made whole, I simply want Tilton/Smisek to foot the bill.

Proudly; Doesn't "Get it" and "not one of Us",

A-320

Eric Stratton

Why do you think that at around 74% (at CAL) the united furloughs would be senior to you? Where are you getting this? It seems pretty far fetched that that would happen.

What do you mean by sacrificed? Were they unnecessarily furloughed or was the company just shrunk to what CAL would merge with?

Eric Stratton

How is it not numerically valid? If it went relative seniority there would either be 1996 or 1997 United hires right next to you. Isn't that roughly the same thing that happened at USAir as you described it except that it's reversed this time?

I'm curious if your position has changed since you seem to be a rare individual who has been both sides to this senario .

As for will it be better or worse. I think that will be determined by the SLI. CAL hired approximately 25% after 2005 and the most junior pilot on property is a 1999 hire. Chances are United has a higher retirement than CAL so what does that look like down the road compared to CAL's. CAL gets Denver back as a base. United might get access to EWR and a quicker upgrade. Buy I highly doubt it will go back to sub 2 years that it was. With or without the merger. United has a higher percentage of wide bodies that CAL gets access too. CAL gets the west coast base that has been a rumor for years. Whether the merger is good or bad has a lot to do with the SLI and until then it's a guessing game.

What kind of recall rights do you have to the left seat?

SOTeric

IMHO;

The 1400 furloughed UAL pilots ALREADY paid for this merger....with their jobs. The grounding of the 737s (and subsequeant furloughs) was nothing more than "right-sizing" UAL for the merger, which was set into motion 2 years ago. The cart was put before the horse and furloughs occurred before the announcement. Pure semantics.

So your "take it form Peter (CAL bottom 1/3rd) to pay Paul (the UAL furloughees)" rings hollow. The furloughees have already "paid". Time for payback in the form of rightful seniority integration.

I'm sure you have heartburn with this but I can only imagine the screaming and stomping of feet if the shoe was on the other foot. I can only hope this SLI gets done, we move on, and realize the potential of this merger.

Eric Stratton

What would that rightful seniority integration be? How would you do it so that it's fair?

supersix-4

Unfortunately you can probably kiss that 50 seat scope goodbye too...

A320fumes

None. But the Sr list is moving in the right direction.

Being on the bad end of the Nicholau award was a tough pill to swallow, but fortunately, this made me very motivated to get out of that place fast; Best Job in the world while it lasted. I had less than 4 years active service when I, as an East '99 hire went about 2,000 numbers jr to an '05 hire AWest hire. I accepted the fact that a working pilot is always Sr to a furloughed pilot, but had a lot of heartburn with a 1988 MDA pilot being Jr to a 2005 AWest pilot, especially since 300 East pilots had been recalled between the merger announcement and the Nic Award.

The UAL/CAL merger will be far less drastic than the USAir/AmWest merger, probably an 8 year differential vs a 17 year one.

I feel that 1,441 UAL pilots were furloughed/downgraded to finance this merger, and AGAIN I feel that they should be compensated for their sacrifice. We have 147, soon to be 132 who paid with their jobs and about 200, self-included, who lost our CA seats. I would have no heartburn about them being paid for that sacrifice, as matter of fact, I embrace it. But as I learned in 2005, A furloughed pilot is NEVER Sr to a working Pilot. I think we need to find a way to make furloughing pilots very Expensive. I would not have a problem with a separate tier of pay for these guys, even if it exceeded my pay for a length of time. We need to make these guys whole and we need to think outside the box to make that happen. After the Nic Award and the UAL Merger downgrade, the A-320 seniority bank is closed. Let's use this unprecedented leverage to make furloughing pilots expensive.

aquagreen73s

Bull sugar. Every '99 hire had less than three years of service and all were at least 700 numbers deep on the furlough list at the time of the merger with AWA.

Remind us what job the '88 hire brought to the AWA/US merger. Answer: none. If the East wanted to protect his contribution versus that of 2000 hire who barely worked at the company before getting furloughed, then the East merger committee should have set out to protect him. But, they didn't. Instead they went after DOH and nothing else. The arbitrator asked/warned your side three times to come off of DOH, but your side refused. Your side left Arbitrator Nicolau no choice. Put in the proper context, the '88 hire slotted with an '05 hire is understandable. An '88 hire at AWA was in the top quarter of the seniority list whereas an 88 hire at AAA was on the street. Heck, an 88 hire at DAL, CAL, or UAL is a widebody captain.

Replace AWA with any airline and the result would have been the same. CAL recently had 2005 DOH captains and yes, those captains should have been slotted in with AAA 1986 DOH as that was the junior captain position at AAA. There wasn't an airline anywhere on the planet with demographics like AAA's. Nowhere can you find 17 year pilots on the street. Nowhere has there been an airline that has furloughed more than a third of the list and lived to tell about it. Just because AAA was that lucky exception thanks to the merger does not mean there was anything unfair about a relative seniority based integration.

A320fumes

Check Your Pm.

Boneman

Let's see...if you were a '99 hire and had 4 years of service it would only be 2003 and the '05 hire would not have been hired yet. Time warp?

...and only 12,000 pilots vs. 5,000; yes, far less drastic.

Uh, no. They were furloughed to finance the bankruptcy.

I would. [edit: delete insult]