Best Age to a Major
09-17-2010 | 09:43 AM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
I bet you would have chosen to have been gainfully employed at a young age at the airline of your dreams. We all would have. Aviation is not about decisions but luck and circumstances.
In 1990 UPS and SWA were places that pilots went when they could not get hired by a real airline like UAL, AA, NWA and DAL. Now they are on top, but no one would have guessed that in 1990.
Who here can accurately guess which airlines will still be around ten years from now? Those who are on top today most likely will be the industries sad story tomorrow. The only choice a pilot can make is how much abuse are they willing to take waiting for the mysterious hand of aviation to make their dreams come true.
Skyhigh
In 1990 UPS and SWA were places that pilots went when they could not get hired by a real airline like UAL, AA, NWA and DAL. Now they are on top, but no one would have guessed that in 1990.
Who here can accurately guess which airlines will still be around ten years from now? Those who are on top today most likely will be the industries sad story tomorrow. The only choice a pilot can make is how much abuse are they willing to take waiting for the mysterious hand of aviation to make their dreams come true.
Skyhigh
Sky, you didn't identify the right employers to pursue. That does not mean it is luck of the draw only and there is no opportunity to be seen. A friend of mine received 4 class dates from 4 interviews at 4 majors in December/January 2007/2008. He must have been the luckiest pilot alive. Except for the fact this friend relentlessly networked and worked hard at Eagle for 7 years before he moved on. He was 30 then. If you want to try and talk about networking being "luck" consider me. The company that just hired me is a GOOD place to work. There are many, many worse places to be. It will be my third job not counting instructing/pilot services. All 3 jobs were considered one of "THE" places to go. I had no references at any of the jobs because I don't network well, a shortcoming of mine. I worked hard and interviewed well and was hired. I also have landed a Southwest and UPS interview in the last 5 years, again with little help (one reference at each.) The dedicated professional can do well in this industry. Just as one can in many other professions. What most pilots do not realize is there is work involved. The real work generally does not come on the line, where our paychecks come from. It comes from training and networking to position ourselves for that "dream" job that other pilots feel we "lucked out" and "fell" into it. May be true for some, but most pilots worked their tail off to get that "dream" job.
As an aside, I have seldom worked harder in this career than the 8 months on furlough that will end Sunday night. Finding the job is harder than doing the job, unless you just don't care where you work or what your contract is like.
09-17-2010 | 10:17 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Likes: 0
You didn't mean "you're," the contraction of "you are" did you? Man, this attitude displayed is why furloughed guys have that "pilot" label wrapped around them with the negative connotation. Always willing to give an opinion without paying attention to the details.
The original poster can get where he wants to go in the time frame he wants if he works hard, networks relentlessly and enjoys a little luck. I was not hired at a regional until age 26, but had an opportunity to interview at a rapidly expanding LCC at age 28. Unfortunately I did not due to some conflicts. I then got comfortable for a few years, got on with a great company with 15 days off a month from the start, 2008 happened and my supposedly "fast upgrade" turned into a furlough. That was at age 35. I am now 38 and hired recently by a major that still has decent expansion plans. The point is I chose my path.
As an example, thousands of pilots have made good career moves in the last decade by choosing places like Jet Blue, Virgin America, AirTran, and Delta. It appears now that United and Continental may not have been bad moves. Anyone who went to NetJets before 2005 has made out like a bandit. As always, Southwest is a great company to work for even though their growth appears to be stagnating.
There is always opportunity somewhere in aviation. The main mistake pilots make is thinking that the airline with the best deal and working conditions will always be the best. History of the industry shows differently. While it is a gamble, getting hired by the airline with a decent wage scale and decent work rules and room to expand their market share will make for a richer and better QOL over the career of a pilot. He may make 15% less top out rate for equipment, but he got that 60% raise making left seat in half the time and reaped the seniority awards of better schedules to go with that money.
Always look for the clear spaces. It is a rare occasion the radar screen is red in all directions.
The original poster can get where he wants to go in the time frame he wants if he works hard, networks relentlessly and enjoys a little luck. I was not hired at a regional until age 26, but had an opportunity to interview at a rapidly expanding LCC at age 28. Unfortunately I did not due to some conflicts. I then got comfortable for a few years, got on with a great company with 15 days off a month from the start, 2008 happened and my supposedly "fast upgrade" turned into a furlough. That was at age 35. I am now 38 and hired recently by a major that still has decent expansion plans. The point is I chose my path.
As an example, thousands of pilots have made good career moves in the last decade by choosing places like Jet Blue, Virgin America, AirTran, and Delta. It appears now that United and Continental may not have been bad moves. Anyone who went to NetJets before 2005 has made out like a bandit. As always, Southwest is a great company to work for even though their growth appears to be stagnating.
There is always opportunity somewhere in aviation. The main mistake pilots make is thinking that the airline with the best deal and working conditions will always be the best. History of the industry shows differently. While it is a gamble, getting hired by the airline with a decent wage scale and decent work rules and room to expand their market share will make for a richer and better QOL over the career of a pilot. He may make 15% less top out rate for equipment, but he got that 60% raise making left seat in half the time and reaped the seniority awards of better schedules to go with that money.
Always look for the clear spaces. It is a rare occasion the radar screen is red in all directions.
09-17-2010 | 10:32 AM
#84
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Any one open
A lot of guys join Cathay in their early-to mid- twenties as either cadets or Second Officers. If they joined 10 or more years ago, they were all wide body Captains (at the latest) by their early-to mid- thirties.
This industry is entirely about timing.
This industry is entirely about timing.
09-17-2010 | 10:40 AM
#85
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Identify the right employers?
Well, as much "crap" as I will take for saying this, I think Virgin America is the home run ball right now. I started reading about them in late 2005 when they were applying for their operating certificate. I believe in their investors (mainly Branson) for relative stability and they are running the JetBlue playbook and doing it very well. They are not who recently hired me but I think anyone hired there now will have a GREAT career. As I said before, there are always opportunities. It is the pilot's job to identify them. If a pilot left FedEx to go to United in 1999 as Airline Pilot Magazine recommended, then said pilot did not read the history of aviation. When companies mature with great contracts, the opportunity has frequently already expired. The pilot has to identify the airline with room to grow in their market.
Sky, you didn't identify the right employers to pursue. That does not mean it is luck of the draw only and there is no opportunity to be seen. A friend of mine received 4 class dates from 4 interviews at 4 majors in December/January 2007/2008. He must have been the luckiest pilot alive. Except for the fact this friend relentlessly networked and worked hard at Eagle for 7 years before he moved on. He was 30 then. If you want to try and talk about networking being "luck" consider me. The company that just hired me is a GOOD place to work. There are many, many worse places to be. It will be my third job not counting instructing/pilot services. All 3 jobs were considered one of "THE" places to go. I had no references at any of the jobs because I don't network well, a shortcoming of mine. I worked hard and interviewed well and was hired. I also have landed a Southwest and UPS interview in the last 5 years, again with little help (one reference at each.) The dedicated professional can do well in this industry. Just as one can in many other professions. What most pilots do not realize is there is work involved. The real work generally does not come on the line, where our paychecks come from. It comes from training and networking to position ourselves for that "dream" job that other pilots feel we "lucked out" and "fell" into it. May be true for some, but most pilots worked their tail off to get that "dream" job.
As an aside, I have seldom worked harder in this career than the 8 months on furlough that will end Sunday night. Finding the job is harder than doing the job, unless you just don't care where you work or what your contract is like.
Sky, you didn't identify the right employers to pursue. That does not mean it is luck of the draw only and there is no opportunity to be seen. A friend of mine received 4 class dates from 4 interviews at 4 majors in December/January 2007/2008. He must have been the luckiest pilot alive. Except for the fact this friend relentlessly networked and worked hard at Eagle for 7 years before he moved on. He was 30 then. If you want to try and talk about networking being "luck" consider me. The company that just hired me is a GOOD place to work. There are many, many worse places to be. It will be my third job not counting instructing/pilot services. All 3 jobs were considered one of "THE" places to go. I had no references at any of the jobs because I don't network well, a shortcoming of mine. I worked hard and interviewed well and was hired. I also have landed a Southwest and UPS interview in the last 5 years, again with little help (one reference at each.) The dedicated professional can do well in this industry. Just as one can in many other professions. What most pilots do not realize is there is work involved. The real work generally does not come on the line, where our paychecks come from. It comes from training and networking to position ourselves for that "dream" job that other pilots feel we "lucked out" and "fell" into it. May be true for some, but most pilots worked their tail off to get that "dream" job.
As an aside, I have seldom worked harder in this career than the 8 months on furlough that will end Sunday night. Finding the job is harder than doing the job, unless you just don't care where you work or what your contract is like.
When it comes to picking a winning horse it can be more difficult. In 2000 there were several encouraging start ups in the industry. The sweethearts are all long gone and a few of the underdogs still hanging on. You just can not tell who the winners are going to be nor can you control when and where the job offers come from.
Control is an illusion in aviation. One of my friends could become the chief pilot at the next big deal and I could get hired ahead of others who have been stuck on the line for years. It is all about luck.
Skyhigh
09-17-2010 | 10:42 AM
#86
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
09-17-2010 | 12:54 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
From: B-757/767 Capt.
[quote=CommutR4Life;872005]I bet YOUR a blast to fly with. I'm just pointing out the fact that it will be almost impossible for this kid to make it to a major with the time frame he has set for himself.
It can be done for sure, i've seen it happen many times, as long as they stay away from the advice of condescending negative people who self appoint themselves to discourage anyone from doing what they couldn't. The kind who might refer to them as kids. They are worthy of respect as they work to achieve goals.
It can be done for sure, i've seen it happen many times, as long as they stay away from the advice of condescending negative people who self appoint themselves to discourage anyone from doing what they couldn't. The kind who might refer to them as kids. They are worthy of respect as they work to achieve goals.
Last edited by cubguy; 09-17-2010 at 02:08 PM.
09-17-2010 | 04:37 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
From: In front of my computer
Yeah. Great. Thanks for pointing that out. I hope to someday be as smart as you on your worst day.
Some of you people with the spelling/punctuation hang up; must have been the spelling bee champ in middle school
Some of you people with the spelling/punctuation hang up; must have been the spelling bee champ in middle school
09-17-2010 | 04:42 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
From: In front of my computer
[QUOTE=cubguy;872187]
Oh come on! Its totally unrealistic and everyone knows it! (given the current state of the industry)
I bet YOUR a blast to fly with. I'm just pointing out the fact that it will be almost impossible for this kid to make it to a major with the time frame he has set for himself.
It can be done for sure, i've seen it happen many times, as long as they stay away from the advice of condescending negative people who self appoint themselves to discourage anyone from doing what they couldn't. The kind who might refer to them as kids. They are worthy of respect as they work to achieve goals.
It can be done for sure, i've seen it happen many times, as long as they stay away from the advice of condescending negative people who self appoint themselves to discourage anyone from doing what they couldn't. The kind who might refer to them as kids. They are worthy of respect as they work to achieve goals.
09-17-2010 | 05:10 PM
#90
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
[quote=cubguy;872187]
I made my first flight as a flight instructor when I was 20 and was at a legacy at age 25.
It's not impossible!
I bet YOUR a blast to fly with. I'm just pointing out the fact that it will be almost impossible for this kid to make it to a major with the time frame he has set for himself.
It can be done for sure, i've seen it happen many times, as long as they stay away from the advice of condescending negative people who self appoint themselves to discourage anyone from doing what they couldn't. The kind who might refer to them as kids. They are worthy of respect as they work to achieve goals.
It can be done for sure, i've seen it happen many times, as long as they stay away from the advice of condescending negative people who self appoint themselves to discourage anyone from doing what they couldn't. The kind who might refer to them as kids. They are worthy of respect as they work to achieve goals.
It's not impossible!
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