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-   -   Delta Pilots Association (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/53577-delta-pilots-association.html)

tsquare 08-14-2011 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1038822)

Also, I will once again state that picking the best vendor is a fancy word for outsourcing, and it really dilutes your words about outsourcing when your union is promoting the same.
Yup.. catch 22 no doubt about it. Business is business. I don't want my job outsourced, but I don't care about the national union's if it saves US money. Use whatever adjective you want.. diluted.. hollow.. it matters not. Alpa national is no charity, and I don't want it to be operated as such with regard to the employees. The lawyers are pulling 5 bones/hour or some other obscene amount, they damned well better produce and bring their own coffee.

/RANT

Carl Spackler 08-14-2011 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1038822)
Again, out of the two choice that are representing labor, I think ALPA clearly chose the best one.
Again, you are spinning because you were busted in your attempt to make DPA look hypocritical. And again, as is typical for you after being busted, you re-define the very phrases that you used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1038822)
Also, the point was that even in the open market, which you assert ALPA partakes in, is limited for Labor.
That wasn't your point dude. It's only your point now that you realize you wrongly accused DPA of being hypocritical. And I'm not "asserting" that ALPA legal is in the open market. ALPA legal is their own entity now, and is able to be hired by people outside of ALPA. Who in the hell would want to do that, is another matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1038822)
Also, I will once again state that picking the best vendor is a fancy word for outsourcing, and it really dilutes your words about outsourcing when your union is promoting the same.
It's only outsourcing if your entity had these professions in house at one time. DPA has not had these in house. ALPA has. Now, ALPA has outsourced these aeromedical and legal (and there may be others). Now THAT'S outsourcing.

DPA is truly just shopping for the best professional services, instead of being stuck with a poor performer that's been with you forever.

Carl

Carl Spackler 08-14-2011 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1038825)
I would wait and see what and where that whole fiasco goes. It is far from over. Not all of the facts are out yet.
That's not how trials work. ALPA doesn't get to argue these facts again on appeal. An appeal is all about asserting that the judge erred somehow, there was jury misconduct, or some other procedural error. As far as this trial is concerned, the FACTS are all out. ALPA's only hope now is to delay, appeal, and hope for a smaller out of court settlement.

This verdict against ALPA is a clear and unambiguous showing of the unethical behavior of ALPA and ALPA legal. This unambiguous showing was handed down by an independent panel of jurors who did not have a dog in the fight. I know it's painful for the ALPA apologists to hear this, but it's the truth. You can call it an OJ jury or a Casey Anthony jury if it makes you feel better, but it's just a silly argument.

If this had been the only example of unethical behavior, you could almost try to look the other way. But it's not the only example. ALPA's and ALPA legal's attempt to bust their own in-house union of clerical workers had a similar result by the judiciary. I simply cannot imagine how so many of us are able to look the other way with such behavior and such failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1038825)
I will also agree with you that ALPA should never sell a members job or protections down the river. That support is what makes ALPA strong.
Totally agree.

Carl

acl65pilot 08-14-2011 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1038882)
Again, you are spinning because you were busted in your attempt to make DPA look hypocritical. And again, as is typical for you after being busted, you re-define the very phrases that you used.



That wasn't your point dude. It's only your point now that you realize you wrongly accused DPA of being hypocritical. And I'm not "asserting" that ALPA legal is in the open market. ALPA legal is their own entity now, and is able to be hired by people outside of ALPA. Who in the hell would want to do that, is another matter.



It's only outsourcing if your entity had these professions in house at one time. DPA has not had these in house. ALPA has. Now, ALPA has outsourced these aeromedical and legal (and there may be others). Now THAT'S outsourcing.

DPA is truly just shopping for the best professional services, instead of being stuck with a poor performer that's been with you forever.

Carl
It is part of what DPA is advocating. Outsourcing what ALPA does in house, that is the point. No spin there. It looks bad for a union or alternate union to want to bust another union that does in house labor, and then tout that outsourcing is bad. That is the point.

Many on here want DPA to outsource everything, and that is the point. It make the whole, outsourcing is bad argument hold little to no water.

I am not reworking my words, just responding to your points. ALPA does almost everything in house. One of the reasons why, is because it gives you better results. So much so that APA wanted it, and other use it. As for the law firm point, the point is there are not many in the business of representing labor in the open market. That is why ALPA goes with the best, and the rest go with the other few.

acl65pilot 08-14-2011 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1038889)
That's not how trials work. ALPA doesn't get to argue these facts again on appeal. An appeal is all about asserting that the judge erred somehow, there was jury misconduct, or some other procedural error. As far as this trial is concerned, the FACTS are all out. ALPA's only hope now is to delay, appeal, and hope for a smaller out of court settlement.

This verdict against ALPA is a clear and unambiguous showing of the unethical behavior of ALPA and ALPA legal. This unambiguous showing was handed down by an independent panel of jurors who did not have a dog in the fight. I know it's painful for the ALPA apologists to hear this, but it's the truth. You can call it an OJ jury or a Casey Anthony jury if it makes you feel better, but it's just a silly argument.

If this had been the only example of unethical behavior, you could almost try to look the other way. But it's not the only example. ALPA's and ALPA legal's attempt to bust their own in-house union of clerical workers had a similar result by the judiciary. I simply cannot imagine how so many of us are able to look the other way with such behavior and such failure.



Totally agree.

Carl
On the first point, I agree with the schematics of an appeal, but my point is, ALPA and TWA ALPA are two different entities. ALPA survived, and is the one being sued for TWAALAPA's decisions. It always goes that way. I am sure that this will drag on, and my point is that more facts/positions will come to light.

On the second point, I agree, and that was a very low point for ALPA, and imo totally unacceptable. There is a lot wrong with alpa, and I am the first to admit it, my point is that it is better to fix what we have. I know we disagree on this. Maybe someday we will see eye to eye.

forgot to bid 08-14-2011 06:56 PM

forgot to bid 08-14-2011 06:57 PM

There is a downside to streaking and it's when football players in pads angrily participate. It's too bad I couldn't post the naked women grabbing the flag poles at a golf course and running off with them. Those are funny.

TheManager 08-15-2011 08:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1038825)
I would wait and see what and where that whole fiasco goes. It is far from over. Not all of the facts are out yet. I will also agree with you that ALPA should never sell a members job or protections down the river. That support is what makes ALPA strong.

What do you mean "not all of the facts are out yet?" Are we expecting more damaging information, suits or crippling judgements.

Serious ?. I don't know the answer. Is it true that the ALPA Hdqtrs building in DC was once owned outright by ALPA, but was either mortgaged or sold to cover a previous judgement against them?

NuGuy 08-15-2011 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly4hire (Post 1038761)
PG,

DPA is irrelevant. 3400(?) cards and they can't even force thier agenda via jamming LEC meetings? As one MEC higher up I spoke to said: DPA could own this place if they really had the support they claim to. Fact is they don't.

If ALPA does it's job and fights hard for a new contract, continues to brings us solid improvements, and is responsive to the desires of it's members DPA support will fade and we will have a solidified pilot group when we need it.

I am concerned about all the vitriol and us vs. them - we are all us, all DAL pilots, and all dues paying members of ALPA. Some of the tactics I have observed of late seem to be more marginalizing than unifying.

If we need the unity of 12000 DAL pilots going into section 6 we need to win back ~3400 of our own. Not alienate them further.........
F4H is right on the mark.

If the DPA had the power they claim, they could rick-roll any LEC they wanted. They'd be able to claim the MEC, make the changes they want, KEEP the CF money and then pick up the phone to LM and say "do what we want, or we're out of here", which is far, FAR better vengence than simply taking your ball and slinking home.

What's worse, it's a distraction for competent people who could legitimately make some needed changes in the current regime. The whole DPA has "spoiled the barrel" from problems that need fixing.

Nu

forgot to bid 08-15-2011 11:05 AM
There's only 3,400 pilots that have joined the DPA. I say "only" because it's not a majority and I'm sure ALPA would claim it as a minority.

To say the DPA could takeover the MEC is to also say any minority could take over the union.

And it begs the question, is that what is going on right now?

To me it's not a good thing that the structure of the union would allow that. We often talk about recall your reps, some say it's easy so as to challenge the discontent to work within the ALPA system.

But this could absolutely allow a small coordinated minority, and when I say minority I mean a group that believes in the opposite of whatever you believe in, to take over enough of the LECs to rest control of the union and it may not be to the benefit of the pilots.

That's why I want to vote for LEC and MEC Chairman. Local and "national" representation. You can therein effect or prevent change however you see fit.


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