And this is the part where you say something to the effect of: "What other pilot group has achieved restoration or even more gains?" And then I say: "What other country went to the moon before we did?"

And so it goes... round and round. Bottom line, you're going to support ALPA no matter what. And I'm going to advocate that we at least try to restore our profession and our careers no matter what. But like I said before, I'm not a fatalist. I believe people are capable of doing great things against seemingly insurmountable odds. I believe this pilot group is a lot more capable than we're being led by DALPA to believe we are.

Many Delta pilots? How many? Based on what survey? By whom? And at what cost are you willing to try? No raises for the remainder of your 11 years? It's been...what....8+ years for USAPA? It took another merger for USAPA to get any raises? They couldn't even negotiate it. APA just took concessions as a result their BK. They failed to get any raises before BK by tasking the "restoration now" path. And AMR management tried to dissolve the pension plans, but the PBGC said no. So what have has APA done lately? How about SWAPA? Big raises for them lately? Or IPA? Or FAPA?


And post BK the results have been consistently positive. How much of the "consumers" no longer want the product? The 62% that voted YES on C2012? Or the unknown amount of active cards that DPA claims to have?

That's who DPA has picked. At what point will they change firms? After years of bad results? Or immediately after DPA takes over? And who will pick the firm? Will it be subject to MEMRAT? And how do we create a ballot of firms?

Fair enough. We shall agree to disagree. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday. :)

Bless your heart, johnso. You are so passionate about defending ALPA. You're pedaling as hard as you can intellectually and logically, but you just can't keep up.

Seham will have as much to do with representing us and negotiating our contract as Caplinger will--which is precisely zero. Our elected leadership will determine our legal team. Whomever they select will certainly be better than the ALPA lawyers you are so set on retaining; their hands won't be tied by a crippling conflict of interest.

Look up the definition of the "straw man" fallacy. That sums up your infatuation with Seham.

I have tried to keep track of the DPA/DALPA comparisons and just have to put in my 2 cents worth...

This pilot group is lead by Delta pilots that are elected by Delta pilots. If our representatives want to pander to National, we have the ability to UNelect them. There are plenty of representatives that DO believe in restoration! There are plenty of representatives that are "risk adverse" and don't want to push too hard.

The average LEC election only gets around 40 percent of the pilots to participate...garbage in = garbage out. If the pilots who support the DPA want to change the attitude of the representatives toward restoration now instead of later...go out and nominate YOUR candidates and then elect them. Simple.

During last years Contract vote, a significant number of reps voted against sending the T/A to the pilots (its public record). They lost the vote and the T/A was sent out with a massive sell job (that I heard was contrary to the wishes of many of the reps, even some who voted to send it out). Obviously, the minority that didn't want the T/A sent out in the first place were ignored when they complained about the "sales job"...I heard the quote from one of those in the meetings; "We won, you lost, get over it". This fact is probably why the MEC Chairman was replaced after the contract was passed.

Forward 9 months, some of those same reps that didn't like the fact that their favorite MEC Chairman didn't get re-elected, managed to push for and use a roll call vote to recall the chairman that stated that he wanted to return to a "more bottom up" Delta MEC.

Some of those reps could have/should have been replaced during the last round of elections IF the DPA supporters were paying attention and had the willpower to participate in the process.

To summarize, the complaining I hear about DALPA is easily solved from within IF those 6000 DPA supporters would just get out from behind their keyboards and vote in representatives that share their views...

LP

We can "un-elect" as many reps as we want, but we're still stuck funding a bloated national bureaucracy hobbled by a gross conflict of interest, that enacts an agenda which may or may not align with Delta pilots' best interests.

UNelect those reps that support that bloated funding...and UNelect those that just blindly say OK at the National BOD meetings when it comes to that incompatible agenda. If Delta and UCAL both voted against that bloat and those agendas...it may just change. Or, just don't try and live with the never ending card counting.

I thought surrender was not an option.

You do realize that the recall of our MEC Chairman creates a path for those that pushed the recall to elect a Chairman that can now push the MEC to vote for his/her preferred next ALPA President.

(hint, hint, KR was not a LM fan)

LP

Ah yes. The classic reply of insults from PD. Do you know how to debate otherwise? When you can reply without insulting, then perhaps I'll listen.

It's not a straw man argument PD. Does Seham not currently represent DPA? Has the Seham firm NOT been fired by USAPA, APA, & SWAPA?

And if DPA intends to use a firm other than Seham, then why did they hire Seham in the first place?

You mean like signing a contract that has resulted in growth, aircraft orders, & hiring for mainline?