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Neither DALPA nor the DPA can get the job done.....otherwise it would have been done.

DPA is like a blind man with a flashlight......DALPA isn't much better.

To whom do I tell "Show me the money?" :confused:

At least I can get a double-wide trailer when I retire.......maybe. :D

Then tell us all how the C2k rates were sustainable Carl. When I saw those rates, while elated, I also wondered how they were affordable to the company with the vastly expanding LCC's at the time. I would love to see restoration plus, but I want to see a roadmap, not constant 42%/73% posts that don"t have a how to attached to them. How do we achieve restoration when we are reaching the top of pay scale for all airlines, including SWA.

Is it possible that people who have stepped up to do the work want "restoration" as badly as anyone else, but they recognize that achieving the necessary gains in reality is different than webboard chest thumping? Maybe, just maybe...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 1530213)

All I hear is a bunch of sideline quarterbacks here with no idea of how they'd achieve any of it. I demand restoration!! What's the plan? Demand it and it will happen? Bring down the building? Man the computers 24 hours a day to smear anyone working presently on the pilot group's behalf?

Since you must like football (and so do I), I'll give you a football analogy. Last weak unranked Arizona beat, no---obliterated #5 Oregon 42-16. Unranked USC beat #4 Stanford. Florida lost to GA Southern. None of these were supposed to happen, but they DID.

Now I must ask you, Hawaii, to imagine yourself in the underdog's locker room before the game. What do you think the pre-game talk was like from the head coach?

Was it something like this...."men, let me be perfectly honest with you, we are clearly outmatched. Our opponent is bigger, stronger, and faster. We can't protect our quarterback and we have no one who can run the ball. Our defense is atrocious. Our secondary is going to be picked apart all day.

We're going to lose and lose badly. We have no hope. It is our destiny. Let's go out there and be good sports about it. Let's show the world what great sportsmen we are and take great pleasure in knowing that we played the game as gentlemen. If you happen to knock your opponent to the ground, offer to help him up. Who knows, he might invite you to his next birthday party.

Never mind the scoreboard. It is meaningless. Just hold your head high just knowing that you participated, because it's participation that really matters the most.

I don't want any of you having any illusions about the outcome of this game. We can not win. We will not win. Do not kid yourself into thinking that is even possible, for it is not. If you hear any of your teammates uttering something so ridiculous please inform me immediately and I will set him straight.

Lastly, stay humble."

I bet it was something more like this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 1530213)

Come on what is it and show me where it's ever worked before.

C2K. The battle cry was "RESTORING THE PROFFESSION" and most everyone was onboard.

It starts with a belief that it is possible---you obviously don't have it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by index (Post 1530236)

So you would have bet........and bet your career that AZ would beat Oregon? That USC would beat Stanford? Yes it can and does occasionally happen but nine times out of ten it doesn't. Unfortunately this is business and not a game. Again, what's the game plan Index? This isn't a Disney movie that starts with the belief that anything can happen. We'll see restoration and surpass it from a profitable company with a methodical approach by those that know what they're doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 1530244)

a methodical approach by those that know what they're doing.

oh, they know what they're doing, all right.

they tamp down expectations as low as possible so they're not under any pressure to produce any meaningful results at the negotiating table (or lead any meaningful campaign should they fail).

"Constructive engagement" is simply a euphemism for "path of least resistance."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 1530244)

This isn't about betting. It's about believing. I believe we can win (restoration). You think we're destined to lose. Some people don't have the heart or desire. You're obviously one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawaii50 (Post 1530244)

We'll see restoration and surpass it from a profitable company with a methodical approach by those that know what they're doing.

A methodical approach? A 3% raise per year is at best a lame attempt at keeping up with inflation. We're making far less than we did a DECADE ago! Please explain in detail exactly what this "methodical approach" is because I don't see that DALPA has ANY plan other than appeasement.

The company is wildly profitable NOW, but it won't last. When the music stops--and it will, the company will be back for concessions. You are the one living a fairy tale.

And just who are "those that know what they're doing"????? Lee Moak? DALPA? Are you kidding me??????

Quote:

Originally Posted by index (Post 1530149)

Is that the best you can come up with? I haven’t looked up the pretax numbers for 2010-12, but I assume they are slightly lower. My response to you is this. So what?

I stated that DAL is “in its best financial position ever” and that the time is “NOW” for restoration. Slow, in an attempt to lower others’ collective expectations, said “DAL was in better financial shape 1996-2000 (98 being the best year), which, he said "set the stage for C2K." It had better operating and pretax margins and a much lower debt.” He then challenged me to “please discuss from facts.”

I then posted the FACTS, including the reason (fuel prices, interest expense, etc…) that our pretax margins were lower (albeit only slightly) for the 1996-2000 timeframe. TheManager insightfully added that, given the current “it can be argued they [Delta] are doing much better now [than 1996-2000].” In short, the two of us showed that slow’s thesis was wrong. DAL is doing phenomenal right now (and that was my point), but this won’t last. That is why it is critical that we get our piece of the pie NOW!

Here’s the real issue, acl. Your problem, and you’re no alone, is that you’re not a true advocate for either this pilot group OR the profession as a whole. What you’ve failed to come to grips with is that you are a PILOT, not MANAGEMENT. I don’t know what it is that makes some PILOTS feel this way. Do the ALPA trip drops, hotel reward points, positive space passes to meetings, ALPA expense reports, ALPA vacation bank, hospitality suite, lavish dinners with the MEC front table on the ALPA credit card create some overinflated view of yourself that makes you think you’re MANAGEMENT?

There’s not a question as to whether or not there are two sides to this debate (restoration). There clearly are. The problem is that we seem to constantly hear only management’s arguments from BOTH management AND DALPA.

Here’s a sample:

“DAL is making record profits”
DALPA apologist: “not so, they’re not doing nearly as well as before”

RA pay went up 42% this year
DALPA apologist: “he’s worth every penny of it”

Restoration now!
DALPA apologist: “C2K was unaffordable. DAL had no intention of honoring it. They merely agreed to C2K terms to facilitate filing BR.”

Inflation has significantly eroded our purchasing power
DALPA apologist: “we can’t restore our pay rates in one contract…it’s going to take at least 2” [without ANY explanation as to why]

DAL is spending $1B ($ taken out of the pilot’s contract) on worthless stockbuybacks and dividends.
DALPA apologist: “This is money well spent. It will assure us a spot on the S&P 500, as well as lower the corporations borrowing costs.”

Restoration now!
DALPA apologist: "It's going to take AT LEAST 2 negotiating cycles" [again without ANY explanation how this "conclusion" was reached.]

There are SO many different ways that you could be advocating FOR the pilots instead of AGAINST us. The way to be an effective advocate for your client—the pilots---is to emphasize the points that justify restoration and minimize the reasons why restoration is not achievable. What you are doing right now is exactly the opposite.

If you want to be management, that's fine. Go do it. Just don't masquerade as a pilot advocate when you're not.

Great post index. Couldn't have said it better.

Carl

DPA's latest email was very telling to me. They have received $150,000 in contributions which equates to less then $27.00 or one 24 hour per dime check per each claimed member.

If you look deeper the letter writer goes on to state only 18% of all members have contributed. I now see why there has been no vote. If you can only garner less then one days per dime per member in 4 years of membership drives you support may not be as strong as you think.

As Carl has said they want a pad before they call a vote. They are over the 50% line according to the emails but still haven't called for a vote. My guess is until the 6500 plus cards they will not call a vote.

Carl I asked before but maybe you missed it. In YOUR OPINION, not speaking for DPA, at what number of cards would you call for a vote?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorfman (Post 1530257)

Carl I asked before but maybe you missed it. In YOUR OPINION, not speaking for DPA, at what number of cards would you call for a vote?

In my opinion, 6,000 cards or April 2014.

Carl