FTDT NPRM - follow the money.......
10-13-2010, 06:07 PM
#1
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FTDT NPRM - follow the money.......
Aviation industry tries to undercut key change
By JOAN LOWY
WASHINGTON
The aviation industry is trying to water down a key safety change recently passed by Congress in response to a regional airline crash last year that killed 50 people.
A Federal Aviation Administration advisory panel dominated by airlines, companies that employ pilots to fly corporate planes and university flight schools wants to reduce by two-thirds a requirement that airline co-pilots have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flying experience -- the same experience threshold that captains must meet.
The key issue is money, according to officials familiar with the panel's deliberations. Airlines worry that if the FAA raises the threshold for co-pilots -- also called first officers -- from the current minimum of 250 hours, airlines will be forced to raise pilot salaries and benefits in order to attract more experienced fliers, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.
Most airline pilots have far more experience than 1,500 hours. But industry analysts have forecast a pilot shortage if the economy starts to expand, which could create a premium for experience. The salaries of corporate and other private pilots are affected by airline salaries.
University flight schools are similarly concerned that if beginner pilots have to accrue 1,500 hours of flight experience before they can be hired by an airline, they'll skip expensive university training in favor of amassing flight time through per-hour instruction.
Using a provision in the new law that allows the FAA to give prospective pilots some credit for flight school training, the panel proposed allowing airlines to hire university-trained first officers with as few as 500 hours, according to a copy of the panel's recommendations.
The roles of airline captains and first officers have changed over the years. Today, both pilots are expected to be able to fly a plane equally well and to share duties.
The FAA formed the committee this summer just before Congress passed a far-reaching aviation safety bill, including the boost in required flight hours.
The law was prompted by a regional airline crash near Buffalo, N.Y., in February 2009 that killed 50 people. The flight's 24-year-old first officer earned about $16,000 in the year before the accident. She lived at home with her parents near Seattle, but flew across the country in order to reach the airline's base in Newark, N.J., in time for the flight.
A National Transportation Safety Board investigation concluded the first officer and the flight's captain were likely suffering fatigue at the time of the accident. Neither had slept in a bed the night before -- the first officer napped in a cockpit jumpseat, the captain in a crew lounge where sleeping was discouraged. Pilots, particularly at regional airlines, often can't afford to live in the communities where they're based. Some share cheap apartments near their base so they can grab sleep before flights. Others simply nap wherever they can.
Lawmakers who proposed the 1,500-hour requirement last year said at the time they hoped it would lead to higher salaries.
"The new safety law explicitly requires 1,500 flight hours," Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Ill., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure aviation subcommittee, said this week. "Any modification of that number has to be justified as making safety stronger than current ... requirements."
Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., who pushed the requirement in the Senate, said Congress was "crystal clear" that 1,500 hours was to be the minimum level required for co-pilots.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said in a statement that the panel's recommendations won't be the sole factor in the agency's determination of how to implement the new law.
FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, a former airline pilot, has expressed skepticism about the 1,500 hour requirement, saying it is more important to improve the quality of the pilot training than to increase the amount of experience in the cockpit.
That has also been the industry position. "The number of hours flown should not be the sole measure of qualification and proficiency," said David Castelveter, a spokesman for the Air Transport Association.
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said money had nothing to do with the recommendation. He said academic training is "far more useful in training pilots for modern airline operations" than hours amassed "towing banners above the beach."
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
The panel also proposed enhancing pilot training programs so that pilots are exposed to greater variety of flight scenarios, and requiring that first officers pass a proficiency test specific to the type of airliner they'll be flying.
Only captains have to pass that test now.
By JOAN LOWY
WASHINGTON
The aviation industry is trying to water down a key safety change recently passed by Congress in response to a regional airline crash last year that killed 50 people.
A Federal Aviation Administration advisory panel dominated by airlines, companies that employ pilots to fly corporate planes and university flight schools wants to reduce by two-thirds a requirement that airline co-pilots have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flying experience -- the same experience threshold that captains must meet.
The key issue is money, according to officials familiar with the panel's deliberations. Airlines worry that if the FAA raises the threshold for co-pilots -- also called first officers -- from the current minimum of 250 hours, airlines will be forced to raise pilot salaries and benefits in order to attract more experienced fliers, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.
Most airline pilots have far more experience than 1,500 hours. But industry analysts have forecast a pilot shortage if the economy starts to expand, which could create a premium for experience. The salaries of corporate and other private pilots are affected by airline salaries.
University flight schools are similarly concerned that if beginner pilots have to accrue 1,500 hours of flight experience before they can be hired by an airline, they'll skip expensive university training in favor of amassing flight time through per-hour instruction.
Using a provision in the new law that allows the FAA to give prospective pilots some credit for flight school training, the panel proposed allowing airlines to hire university-trained first officers with as few as 500 hours, according to a copy of the panel's recommendations.
The roles of airline captains and first officers have changed over the years. Today, both pilots are expected to be able to fly a plane equally well and to share duties.
The FAA formed the committee this summer just before Congress passed a far-reaching aviation safety bill, including the boost in required flight hours.
The law was prompted by a regional airline crash near Buffalo, N.Y., in February 2009 that killed 50 people. The flight's 24-year-old first officer earned about $16,000 in the year before the accident. She lived at home with her parents near Seattle, but flew across the country in order to reach the airline's base in Newark, N.J., in time for the flight.
A National Transportation Safety Board investigation concluded the first officer and the flight's captain were likely suffering fatigue at the time of the accident. Neither had slept in a bed the night before -- the first officer napped in a cockpit jumpseat, the captain in a crew lounge where sleeping was discouraged. Pilots, particularly at regional airlines, often can't afford to live in the communities where they're based. Some share cheap apartments near their base so they can grab sleep before flights. Others simply nap wherever they can.
Lawmakers who proposed the 1,500-hour requirement last year said at the time they hoped it would lead to higher salaries.
"The new safety law explicitly requires 1,500 flight hours," Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Ill., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure aviation subcommittee, said this week. "Any modification of that number has to be justified as making safety stronger than current ... requirements."
Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., who pushed the requirement in the Senate, said Congress was "crystal clear" that 1,500 hours was to be the minimum level required for co-pilots.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said in a statement that the panel's recommendations won't be the sole factor in the agency's determination of how to implement the new law.
FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, a former airline pilot, has expressed skepticism about the 1,500 hour requirement, saying it is more important to improve the quality of the pilot training than to increase the amount of experience in the cockpit.
That has also been the industry position. "The number of hours flown should not be the sole measure of qualification and proficiency," said David Castelveter, a spokesman for the Air Transport Association.
Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said money had nothing to do with the recommendation. He said academic training is "far more useful in training pilots for modern airline operations" than hours amassed "towing banners above the beach."
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
The panel also proposed enhancing pilot training programs so that pilots are exposed to greater variety of flight scenarios, and requiring that first officers pass a proficiency test specific to the type of airliner they'll be flying.
Only captains have to pass that test now.
10-13-2010, 06:20 PM
#2
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Originally Posted by HSLD
Aviation industry tries to undercut key change
By JOAN LOWY
WASHINGTON
The aviation industry is trying to water down a key safety change recently passed by Congress in response to a regional airline crash last year that killed 50 people.
A Federal Aviation Administration advisory panel dominated by airlines, companies that employ pilots to fly corporate planes and university flight schools wants to reduce by two-thirds a requirement that airline co-pilots have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flying experience -- the same experience threshold that captains must meet.
The key issue is money, according to officials familiar with the panel's deliberations. Airlines worry that if the FAA raises the threshold for co-pilots -- also called first officers -- from the current minimum of 250 hours, airlines will be forced to raise pilot salaries and benefits in order to attract more experienced fliers, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.
By JOAN LOWY
WASHINGTON
The aviation industry is trying to water down a key safety change recently passed by Congress in response to a regional airline crash last year that killed 50 people.
A Federal Aviation Administration advisory panel dominated by airlines, companies that employ pilots to fly corporate planes and university flight schools wants to reduce by two-thirds a requirement that airline co-pilots have a minimum of 1,500 hours of flying experience -- the same experience threshold that captains must meet.
The key issue is money, according to officials familiar with the panel's deliberations. Airlines worry that if the FAA raises the threshold for co-pilots -- also called first officers -- from the current minimum of 250 hours, airlines will be forced to raise pilot salaries and benefits in order to attract more experienced fliers, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.
What a travesty that they'd have to pay livable wages.
10-13-2010, 06:26 PM
#3
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Position: Doing what you do, for less.
Posts: 1,792
Everybody needs to just get in in their heads that this industry needs....
1) Experienced pilots
2) Rested pilots
3) Pilots paid a livable wage
and the most important for the public and bean counters...
4) Ticket prices that actually cover the costs of running an airline (including steps 1-3!)
1) Experienced pilots
2) Rested pilots
3) Pilots paid a livable wage
and the most important for the public and bean counters...
4) Ticket prices that actually cover the costs of running an airline (including steps 1-3!)
10-13-2010, 06:54 PM
#4
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 274
Originally Posted by HSLD
.........."the panel proposed allowing airlines to hire university-trained first officers with as few as 500 hours, according to a copy of the panel's recommendations."...........
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
UFB! If there was any question that ALPA was pro-regional and
affected by the ATA and mgmt., there's your answer. Where is
my dues check off opt out form??
10-14-2010, 04:39 AM
#6
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Position: whale wrangler
Posts: 3,527
'said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly'.
Why are they even speaking if they are not authorized to do so publicly ?
Been a lot of this over the years .
Ally
Why are they even speaking if they are not authorized to do so publicly ?
Been a lot of this over the years .
Ally
10-14-2010, 05:31 AM
#7
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Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by 1257
.........."the panel proposed allowing airlines to hire university-trained first officers with as few as 500 hours, according to a copy of the panel's recommendations."...........
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
The two pilot organizations on the panel were divided on the issue. The Air Line Pilots Association, whose members include pilots at both regional and major airlines, backed the recommendations. But the Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, whose members include pilot unions at major airlines and cargo carriers, dissented, saying that even enhanced training isn't a substitute for experience.
10-14-2010, 05:39 AM
#8
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Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by bluefrog
Does anyone know the reason ALPA would back this?
Maybe if they ever used their brains they'd see that higher wages means more annual earnings which means more dues $$$. Oh wait, that is that stupid logic thingy clogging up my thought process again.
10-14-2010, 05:59 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by johnso29
Money. ALPA sees the shortage on the horizon, & wants new bodies easier. They don't want the regionals to dry up, because that's less dues money.
Maybe if they ever used their brains they'd see that higher wages means more annual earnings which means more dues $$$. Oh wait, that is that stupid logic thingy clogging up my thought process again.
Maybe if they ever used their brains they'd see that higher wages means more annual earnings which means more dues $$$. Oh wait, that is that stupid logic thingy clogging up my thought process again.
Johnso29,
I'm hoping it has to be something more than 2% of regional wages....like you said, your 2% goes a lot farther than my 2%.
Is there a place to find what the % of dues to ALPA arrives from the regional vs. Major airlines?
Simply curious...
TC
10-14-2010, 07:53 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 125
Originally Posted by johnso29
Money. ALPA sees the shortage on the horizon, & wants new bodies easier. They don't want the regionals to dry up, because that's less dues money.
Maybe if they ever used their brains they'd see that higher wages means more annual earnings which means more dues $$$. Oh wait, that is that stupid logic thingy clogging up my thought process again.
Maybe if they ever used their brains they'd see that higher wages means more annual earnings which means more dues $$$. Oh wait, that is that stupid logic thingy clogging up my thought process again.
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