ualdriver

You should apologize.

So your pay rates are up to the lowest paying legacies in the industry that had LCC wages forced down their throat six years ago? Congrats. The fact that you are bragging about just shows the mentality of your pilot group. And the fact that your group only looks at hourly wages proves that you guys need to sit down with a good ALPA E&FA guy to see how far you REALLY are behind. For example, UA guys get a 16% B&C fund and medical for my family costs $0 (zero) dollars per month for a good HMO. But your management guys are smart. They know hourly wages are bright and shiny and will dance that object in front of your eyes every time.

Without the help of a union? Please. The only raises you guys will ever see are trailing wage increases (this raise being a perfect example) that are earned riding on the coat tails of negotiated union contracts.

When (if?) the majors start hiring VA guys will leave in droves and more raises will be dangled in front of your eyes. Keep an eye on what's going on at JetBlue right now......

RJSAviator76

Show me one regional airline flying Airbus equipment. Even Frontier, which is owned by a regional airline, pays quite a bit better.

See, I don't have a problem with your pay per se. VX is a start-up airline that's carving out its place in today's airline industry. Fair enough... some people won't like it, and that's to be expected.

But geez guys, come on... bragging about year 10 pay when you've been in existence for 4 years? Hell, they could have put the year 10 pay at $310/hour for the next 5 years, your captains aren't making that and won't be for another 5-6 years simply because your airline hasn't been around that long. Or this about trying to compare the pay to a regional airline captain?! Really?!?!

Come on... comparing A320 captain rates in China (which top $200k/year net by the way) is more applicable than your guys' comparisons to regional airlines and non-applicable payscales.

CASmaster

Agree w/ualdriver on all counts.......

Hourly pay rates are just the tip of the iceberg. A good retirement/benefits package is worth its weight in gold over the long haul of 20+ years. Let’s not forget to include work rules in the equation either.

The most recent pay raise (and probably any future raise) is nothing more than the proverbial "dangling carrot on a stick" by management. The overall compensation package at VA, IMO, will NEVER be on par with the most favorably compensated pilot groups in the industry.

The exodus has already begun, albeit at a slow trickle. In the last few months, there have been a handful of individuals leave for bigger and better things. I would be surprised if most individuals less than 40 years of age don't leave VA when hiring across the industry is at full tilt.

C.S.

NEDude

Fish, there you go again - speaking half truths to make your point and further eroding what is left of you credibility. It is amazing you have any self respect. What about the other things asked for in bankruptcy that destroyed jobs at the legacy carriers and drove down pilot wages across the board? Things that ALPA had readily opened the doors to like outsourcing. Had ALPA not opened the door to that in the early 1990s, there could have been no push for that in bankruptcy. Had ALPA held its ground when they had the chance, United could not have dumped all of its 737s in favor of Republic RJs and furloughing over 1500 mainline pilots. Imagine all of the mainline jobs that would have been available at Delta, American, USAirways, Continental, etc over the last 15 years had ALPA not opened the door to outsourcing RJs in the 1990s. Imagine if the bankruptcy courts did not have that precedent to open the door even more. Imagine if ALPA had stood up and not allowed mainline jobs to be replaced by $16/hr RJ jobs.

Funny how you seem to conveniently forget all that fish. Which is why you have no credibility.

NEDude

Hey, that's great! I'll throw my stuff in at United, sounds like a great job! Oh...wait...I can't. You see ALPA allowed its jobs to be outsourced to regional carriers with poverty level wages.

But at least the guys who got hired at United are doing okay right? Oh...wait...I see there are 1500 guys furloughed and United ditched all of their 737s in favor of RJs.

Well at least there are a lot of regional jobs available for those furloughed guys right? Oh...wait...You mean they have to start at the bottom of the seniority list at $20,000/year, and not even having so much as 401k matching?

Well it is nice to know ALPA is working hard for you at least, just like it did for all of the members at TWA and USAirways...

Bocaflyer

All,

Starting this thread was clearly a huge mistake. Too many polarizing opinions to even get into civil discussions. We will never agree on 10% of the issues.

I was simply try to explain, that there are other things to consider sometimes. I had a bad experience jump-seating, then I see these forums and people complaining about our pay. So I made an emotional and rash decision to post.

I wanted to point out the pay is slowly being adjust like JB and SW was. I also wanted to point out SW is now the highest paid after being near the bottom initially. So there is hope for us too.

Me and most of my colleagues are no different than anyone else at other airlines. Most of us, myself included are furloughs from other airlines (Majority Legacies) or have been through 3 or 4 failed carriers. We are just tying to do well for our families, mortgages, kids college funds, our careers, etc,. That being said I love the culture at VX. We all hope the money will come later, for the chance of great seniority until retirement. (yeah right.)

Anyways, I deeply regret starting the thread. I hope nobody was too deeply offended by it in the least; that was completely not the idea behind it.

Cheers.

ualdriver

Ummm.....no. "ALPA," which I assume you mean to be "ALPA National" doesn't call the shots. Pilots do at individual airlines. Remember, "ALPA" sucks and therefore that is good, right? We don't want "ALPA National" telling pilots what to do because they suck, right? Pilots tell pilots what to do within ALPA. So if you want to blame anyone, blame United pilots (in this case). And I accept the responsibility for not being able to predict the future in the late 1990's. Nobody at my airline voted the way they did to "screw over" furloughees. They thought that it was best for the airline to provide feed through a regional jet system, and that it would lead to more jobs, not less, at the mainline. Unfortunately, since mainline pilots weren't able to predict the future, the votes cast at United (this example) were incorrect. Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?

Further, it's kind of a moot point because even if United pilots (this example) had given management the middle finger back in the late 90's with the RJ thing, they would have gotten them in bankruptcy, anyway. The vote to relax scope at United (and other major airlines) just allowed what was going to happen (again with hindsight) about 3 years earlier.

What happened at TWA and US Airways are a subject of another thread and have been beat to death. The problem that ALPA will always have is the following: ALPA is at many major airlines. Bad things can happen to airlines in a capitalistic system- weak airlines die, strong airlines prosper. Capitalism is extremely Darwin-istic. TWA, for example, is an airline that didn't survive, and that sometimes happens with businesses in the U.S. ALPA is at TWA, bad things happened to TWA because it was a losing airline in our free market society, so therefore it's "ALPA's" fault. Again, blaming "ALPA" for what happened at TWA is simple and fun. However, I would argue that TWA was an airline that failed, and bad things happen to companies that fail, and that's not a union's fault. People that suffer need someone to blame for their problems. ALPA makes for a convenient punching bag. If that makes people feel better or for internet posters to make weak points, that's fine. But I wouldn't agree that ALPA was the cause of either airline's demise.

mxracr

UAL,
Stop being reasonable and making sense. There is no room for such behavior in here!

NEDude

You are correct that hindsight is 20/20. However once the ball got rolling and the trend was obvious, very few pilot groups stood up to try and stop or slow it down. You still want to give ALPA (collectively national and the individual pilot groups) a free pass because nobody had the foresight to see that the airlines were going to ask for more scope relief in bankruptcy. How about giving the same free pass to those who did not see that airline management was going to ask for JetBlue rates in bankruptcy?

Nobody is blaming ALPA for the demise of TWA. ALPA dropped the ball when it came to looking out for the interests of the ALPA members of TWA. ALPA washed their hands of them and let them get worked over by the APA. That is what I was referring to there.

As for capitalism, you are correct, bad things can happen. And some airlines can start with a different business plan, and some pilots furloughed from legacy carriers, and pilots stuck at dead end regionals, can take those jobs and vastly improve their bottom line. You cannot claim to love capitalism and then hate start-up companies. You cannot claim to hate government policies that allow a start-up to gain a foothold, and love the fact that your carrier was allowed to stay in business under federal bankruptcy protection and ATSB loans.

Start-up companies are a product of a healthy capitalist economy, whether it be aviation or another industry. We happen to live in a capitalist country.

Deal with it.

ualdriver

Deal with it? Sure. I can deal with companies like VA and Allegiant and Skybus. I have no problem "dealing" with the competition EXCEPT when their attempt to compete is to play the "let's see who can pay their pilots less" game. That's the game upstarts play. You come in, pay an industry undercutting wage, and then use that labor cost advantage to undercut the rest of us. How about we all compete on something except discount airline pilot salaries? If your product is so great, why doesn't your management pay a market wage, WITH retirement and benefits?

Hawaiian and Alaska are right now encroaching on markets that have traditionally been "ours" in the past. Wait and see if I have any comments about losing, if we do. I won't write anything because it's a union carrier paying a union wage. If we lose because we offer an inferior product, so be it. At least I didn't lose to an airline paying ridiculous narrowbody wages. Just the fact that you're defending it goes to show how out of touch most VA guys are.

Um, again, "ALPA" didn't do anything wrong IMO. The TWA pilots chose their path, and because they didn't get what they wanted with the APA, they sued ALPA. The TWA pilot group could have chosen to not agree to the prepackaged deal and gone into bankruptcy with no deal with American and taken their chances. They chose the route that got some of their pilots hired at American, but when they didn't get what they felt they deserved, they sued ALPA. I mean, c'mon? Was "ALPA" supposed to get a 25 year Captain at a bankrupt TWA date of hire and placed ahead of a bunch of guys at a successful airline? It's sour grapes. I think when the lawsuit is finally decided it will prove that. But ALPA does make for a nice, easy, fat target though.

My airline did not get an ATSB loan. My airline reorganized under U.S. bankruptcy law.

ALPA hasn't tried to stop the spread of RJ flying once we determined the damage it was doing? Really? Are you kidding me? We're in contract negotiations right now. Scope if front and center and is easily a strike issue. It's been a major issue for just about every airline for years. Unfortunately, labor can't stop much while reorganizing in bankruptcy.

Your point at the end of the first paragraph makes no sense to me. It's almost like you're making my point for me. The whole industry saw the damage that airlines like JetBlue, Frontier, Southwest, etc., did to mainline pilot wages. That same damage will be done AGAIN if airlines like VA flourish, dragging down narrowbody wages and compensation further. It doesn't matter what excuse you have for it, it damages the industry.