NEDude

You are taking a very comprehensive issue, focusing on one part of it and laying full blame for what you consider the woes of the industry on that one part. It is called simplification. Perhaps that is your only way of grasping it.

" If your product is so great, why doesn't your management pay a market wage, WITH retirement and benefits?"

Apparently you have failed to learn about supply and demand back in junior high. Virgin America has well over 5000 fully qualified and regularly updated resumes on file. Southwest, Jetblue, Allegiant all have at least that and more. Why do they have so many resumes on file? Oh yeah, the issues you give yourself a free pass on - relaxing scope. The scope ALPA voted to relax, and further relaxed under bankruptcy, has created a huge supply of under compensated and out of work pilots. That is not the fault of Virgin America, JetBlue or Allegiant.

The problem with folks like you is you want everyone else to pay for the mistakes you made in the past - by staying unemployed or accepting poverty level paying jobs at regionals. You also fail to realize that by forcing pilots into regionals and the unemployment line by relaxing scope, you created a huge supply of qualified pilots for an ever decreasing number of jobs at legacy carriers. And in a capitalist economy, you can only artificially inflate wages through collective bargaining so much. The reason there are people like myself and 5000 others who are willing to take jobs at places like Virgin America is because there are no mainline, legacy jobs out there. Why? Because you guys started giving them away back in the 1990s. You did not have the foresight to see the end result, and you cannot change the past. But you also cannot reasonably expect those who have been negatively affected by your actions of the 1990s to continue to pay for your mistakes by sticking out at poverty level wages, or on the unemployment line. Talk about selfish - "we made a mistake and it cost you thousands of good job opportunities, so now you have to sacrifice and pass up the best jobs out there so we can make even more money".

Sadly, I can tell by your arguments that you do not have the ability to grasp the full scope of why the job market is the way it is. You focus blame on the pilots who take the jobs at those companies and ignore the reason why there happens to be thousands of pilots out there ready to take those jobs. For the fact that there are thousands of pilots out there ready, willing, and able to take those jobs is the real reason compensation has driven downward. And if you were to take an objective look at why all those pilots are out there, you would see the massive failures of your union have played a major part in it.

ualdriver

Got it. The picture is starting to form. The reason why VA pilots don't stand up for themselves and undercut is because of ALPA. ALPA gave away scope, so VA pilots have to accept substandard wages. It has NOTHING to due with your pilot group. How is it that airlines that fly similar sized aircraft like Delta, Southwest, Alaska, etc., are able to pay the wages they do DESPITE all the miserable failings of ALPA that apparently has created a huge supply of pilots, yet VA can't?

The problem with you is that you are ****ed off at ALPA for whatever reason, and therefore don't feel the need to stand up for yourself. You're going to accept crappy wages as a big FU to ALPA and you don't want any ALPA guy to tell you that what you are doing is a drag on the industry. We're taking steps right now to try to fix scope and the downward spiral in pay over the past decade and guys like you.....well.....you'll do your best to rationalize why you're doing the opposite.

I'm done. I'm going to type out ramblings about how you guys need to stand up for yourselves and get a total compensation package that you guys deserve, and you're going to tell me it's all ALPA's fault and bring in TWA or US Air or God knows what else to rationalize your pilot group's actions.

dn_wisconsin

I don't think its been said but we just signed our contract at Spirit about 8 months ago and our 10 year captain is $137/hr currently. At DOS+4, which is when VX captains might hit year 10 its $160/hr. Plus we also go upto year 15 now which tops at $185/hr. Nothing to brag about but its not bad. Your pay raise will come almost one year later than ours and you will still make less. So about the time we will have DOS+1 at $145/hr and you will just be getting $130.

NEDude

Once again, you simplify by saying it is because we are po'd at ALPA. Sorry your brain capacity is at maximum. No, it has to do with the fact that wages have been driven down for the past 15 years due to outsourcing to RJs, creating a glut of pilots who have lived at or near the poverty level who are looking for a larger paycheck. Paychecks that are not available at mainline legacy carriers because the jobs were given away.

How are your trying to "fix scope"? What in the history of de-regulation makes you think that once you have given something away you are going to get it back? Name one significant thing ALPA, or any other union, has done since de-regulation to win things back for the pilot profession. This has nothing to do with being po'd at ALPA - I was a dues paying member of both ALPA and teamsters, and a member of an ALPA organizing committee at another airline. I am not angry with ALPA. I am angry with folks at ALPA blaming others for the negative effects of their own failures - the reason pilots are living on food stamps while flying 90 seat jets is because of your actions. You are asking myself, and every other regional pilot out there to sacrifice for your mistakes by passing up larger paychecks or remaining unemployed or collecting foodstamps, in the extremely slim hope you may do something no union has been able to do since de-regulation.

Sadly, due to your mistakes of the past, RJs are out there in huge numbers. The size of those RJs are getting bigger, claiming an ever bigger chunk of the entry level mainline legacy jobs. The cockpits of those airplanes are filled with guys who have never come close to seeing six figures, and the FOs have rarely seen half of six figures. Thousands of former mainline pilots are on the street collecting unemployment due to the mistakes of your past. You seem to think because it was endorsed by your union, those are good things.

I feel truly sorry for you.

Busdriver320

And what are Spirit's 1-7 years DOS rates?

64-96-104-108-115-117-119 then the big jump at year 8 to 133.
I realize these don't include DOS+ Yearly, but let me tell you what VA mgmt probably looks at....we are paid ABOVE Spirit rates for equal longevity. Right or wrong, that's what they do. Had Spirit negotiated higher rates for those first 7 years maybe we'd have some ammo. Why didn't they?...likely because there ARE no 1-7 year capts at Spirit and there probably won't be anytime soon. The reverse of which gets thrown back in VA pilot's faces...."you upgraded in less than 2 years", or "if you're not happy here, go work for Spirit at those rates" (which as we all know you can't because you start at the bottom).

Not all at VA are happy with the recent slap-in-the-face raise, and I have heard there are union rumblings again. Where do I sign the card?

johnso29

I'll show you better. A 10 yr DAL 320 FO making $113 an hour on BK wages. That's the same as a 3 yr VA 320 CA.

Or a 4 yr DAL 320 FO making $100 an hour, which is the same as a 1 yr VA 320 CA.

Lifeisgood

No one expects you to be concerned. You are doing my job at half of my pay, I can't imagine you to be concerned. You are well passed that.

I think you will change your opinion when in 2-5 years yesterday's CFIs will take LLC start up jobs for half of your pay. They will put your company out of business or your leadership will ask for 50% paycut and will have a strong point.

What goes around comes around, bro!

And it never ends, planty of people to prostitute themselves..

Fishfreighter

VX managers won't have to ask for a pay cut. Since VX pilots are not covered by a CBA, they can arbitrarily impose any pay/work rule changes they want.

And what will VX pilots have to say about it? NOTHING.

The only "protection" VX pilots have are the FARs.

NEDude

Your job at half your pay?!

Do we work for the same company? If not, then the only people doing your job are your fellow company employees.

Tell me what airline out there pays A320 pilots twice what VX pays? VX payrates are within 5-10% of industry average across the board. Do a little research and see for yourself instead of blindly following rhetoric.

You accuse people of prostituting themselves while at the same time selfishly request thousands of pilots remain on foodstamps or unemployed in an attempt to subsidize theoretical higher pay for yourself. Remember - there are little to no mainline, legacy jobs because the mainline pilots started giving them away in the 1990s.

Sorry you aren't smart enough to grasp that.

clipperskipper

Ya know if you handed a guy $10 grand in cash, he would complain that one of the $100 bills was wrinkled. VX is still a start-up, give it a little time and all of those good things will happen. What did B6 have in 2004?