Outsourced Flying -vs- Major Airlines
04-12-2011, 05:19 PM
#21
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Fishfreighter
Fixed it for u. Moving up isn't automatic as thosands of RJ CAs can attest.
Unfortunately by working for scraps you limit the chances u have to "move on." You may want to consider that.
Unfortunately by working for scraps you limit the chances u have to "move on." You may want to consider that.
Thus, fish, scope is not an RJ pilots responsibility. It is strictly ours- the people who currently allow it.
Regional pilots cannot effectively scope themselves either. It is as impractical a notion as any nor should they. Why should they quit their job so we get a 25% pay raise instead of 15%? They didn't start it and they can't end it.
Our goal here at Delta should be to eliminate outsourced flying including the Alaska codeshare that's killing our LAX base and thus hurting all of us. Now do I take it out on Alaska pilots that LAX shrinks and pilots are displaced on top of me and there is no movement? Nope. That's not their problem, it's ours.
As to working for scraps, I see two mind sets at most if not all mainline carriers as having played a factor 2 decades ago and continuing today:
1) the ever childish if it's not a Boeing I ain't going (as in I'll chase a 757 seat around the system to keep from flying an Airbus or MD product and I'll be damned if I ever flying something made in Canada or Brazil) and
2) they're paying their dues just like we did in the military.
This allowed regional pilots to fly around in decrepit conditions years ago and then allowed a crappy stretched corporate jet and a converted turboprop to a jet to end up in their hands... for paying their dues wages. By the time anybody caught on it was way too late and when one after another of those regional airlines took a stand for higher pay they were slaughtered in short time. 2) they're paying their dues just like we did in the military.
There will never ever be an airline utopia as long as human beings are involved. If you want to castigate regional pilots then CAL pilots need to be lumped in their too for $31/hr starting with no insurance and for still having scabs on the seniority list. Then DAL pilots for 50% pay cuts, scope erosion and pension elimination. Then UsAir and just keep going on down the line. It's a meaningless internet activity to embark upon.
The only remedy is for mainline carriers to effect their own contracts and kudos to CAL/UAL pilots for their efforts and let's hope that DALPA goes after this RAH STS and fights for a hefty improvement in C2012.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 04-12-2011 at 06:42 PM.
04-12-2011, 05:56 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,356
Originally Posted by Kellwolf
So, what's to stop someone like US Airways from spooling up a regional arm and then underbidding every DCI carrier in order to get money from Delta to subsidize their own operation? If US Airways (or United or whoever)'s scope allows for it, it's an ingenious way to take money from a competitor and put it in your own pocket. I've honestly been shocked that United is perfectly okay subsidizing a direct competitor in DEN through RAH.
Might not be a "slam dunk," but the papers need to be filed and the court battle fought a some point just to set precedent on the issue for down the road. Otherwise, Skywest is gonna ramp up a start up operation with Airbuses (or the 100 seat CRJs) and use everyone's money against them. Same could happen at any regional, and there's not a damn thing anyone could do about it without some sort of legal decision to point to.
Might not be a "slam dunk," but the papers need to be filed and the court battle fought a some point just to set precedent on the issue for down the road. Otherwise, Skywest is gonna ramp up a start up operation with Airbuses (or the 100 seat CRJs) and use everyone's money against them. Same could happen at any regional, and there's not a damn thing anyone could do about it without some sort of legal decision to point to.
On your second point since we fall under the RLA we can't go to court. We have to use the grievance process. Since the Single carrier decision changes nothing with our contract a grievance is not really a viable option. We need changes in what was forced on us in the 1113 contract in the coming contract.
04-12-2011, 06:18 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
The FAs at the regional are half the age of the mainline. 
Really!!
I actually had a pretty good experience on both F9 and Horizon on a recent trip to PHX. For the short Horizon flight from COS to DEN, both ways, the flight attendant could have applied for SS.
Not the hot regional FA your describing. Looked like a standard UAL Int'l FA.
FWIW,
Lee
04-12-2011, 06:20 PM
#24
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Sailing, let me ask, Skywest buys A330s from SLC to NRT and CDG and buys 737s. DALPA will just wait until the next contract to get a remedy? Because how's Skywest doing that any different than RAH working for us while running a competitive airline all under, as has been legally found, one roof?
04-12-2011, 06:25 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
You know who is free from blame in the mainline vs outsource airline debate? Completely 100% free of blame? Southwest Airlines. Their contract doesn't allow outsourced flying to 8 or 10 "different" regionals like the legacy carriers.
Thus, fish, scope is not an RJ pilots responsibility. It is strictly ours- the people who currently allow it.
Regional pilots cannot effectively scope themselves either. It is as impractical a notion as any nor should they, why should they quit their job so we get a 25% pay raise instead of 15%? They didn't start it and they can't end it.
Our goal here at Delta should be to eliminate outsourced flying including the Alaska codeshare that's killing our LAX base and thus hurting all of us. Now do I take it out on Alaska pilots that LAX shrinks and pilots are displaced on top of me and there is no movement? Nope. That's not their problem, it's ours.
As to working for scraps, I see two mind sets at most if not all mainline carriers as having played a factor 2 decades ago and continuing today:
There will never ever be an airline utopia as long as human beings are involved. If you want to castigate regional pilots then CAL pilots need to be lumped in their too for $31/hr starting with no insurance and for still having scabs on the seniority list. Then DAL pilots for 50% pay cuts, scope erosion and pension elimination. Then UsAir and just keep going on down the line. It's a meaningless internet activity to embark upon.
The only remedy is for mainline carriers to effect their own contracts and kudos to CAL/UAL pilots for their efforts and let's hope that DALPA goes after this RAH STS and fights a hefty improvement in C2012.
Thus, fish, scope is not an RJ pilots responsibility. It is strictly ours- the people who currently allow it.
Regional pilots cannot effectively scope themselves either. It is as impractical a notion as any nor should they, why should they quit their job so we get a 25% pay raise instead of 15%? They didn't start it and they can't end it.
Our goal here at Delta should be to eliminate outsourced flying including the Alaska codeshare that's killing our LAX base and thus hurting all of us. Now do I take it out on Alaska pilots that LAX shrinks and pilots are displaced on top of me and there is no movement? Nope. That's not their problem, it's ours.
As to working for scraps, I see two mind sets at most if not all mainline carriers as having played a factor 2 decades ago and continuing today:
1) the ever childish if it's not a Boeing I ain't going (as in I'll chase a 757 seat around the system to keep from flying an Airbus or MD product and I'll be damned if I ever flying something made in Canada or Brazil) and
2) they're paying their dues just like we did in the military.
This allowed regional pilots to fly around in decrepit conditions years ago and then allowed a crappy stretched corporate jet and a converted turboprop to a jet to end up in their hands... for paying their dues wages. By the time anybody caught on it was way too late and when one after another of those regional airlines took a stand for higher pay they were slaughtered in short time. 2) they're paying their dues just like we did in the military.
There will never ever be an airline utopia as long as human beings are involved. If you want to castigate regional pilots then CAL pilots need to be lumped in their too for $31/hr starting with no insurance and for still having scabs on the seniority list. Then DAL pilots for 50% pay cuts, scope erosion and pension elimination. Then UsAir and just keep going on down the line. It's a meaningless internet activity to embark upon.
The only remedy is for mainline carriers to effect their own contracts and kudos to CAL/UAL pilots for their efforts and let's hope that DALPA goes after this RAH STS and fights a hefty improvement in C2012.
04-13-2011, 08:18 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 133
These pilots you loath for flying RJs for too small a wage should be flying turbo props. Unfortunately they are not because the turbo prop flying companies were given RJs that your labor group and it's reps said were OK to give them. To place blame on the guys who were happily paying their dues in turbo props is absurd. They were handed jets and a better pay scale to continue doing the same job. All they had to do was just keep showing up to work and collect a bigger paycheck.
Unfortunately those pilots eventually caught the Captainitis and began to feel elite and that they should make their regional jet job worth staying at for the rest of their career so when contract negotiations came around they did exactly that. They bargained for what they felt they were worth but it came at the expense of others. FOs would never make over $40 an hour just so the captains could line their pockets and make over $100 an hour. They would justify their selfish behavior by saying things like "they'll upgrade so fast it won't matter" and "FOs are just using the job as a stepping stone, I'm here until I retire." Next thing you know the only way regionals can hire new pilots is by lowing minimums to 250 hrs.
So is it the 300 hr wonder who has no spine to stand up for what he's worth really the problem here? I don't think so. Mainline pilots understandably are angry now at what happened and no doubt realize how naive it was to not see these little go carts with wings for what they really were.. a threat to your livelihood and to the entire industry.
The bean counters laugh all the way to the bank because they know that proud pilots are the most easily exploitable labor who will readily defecate on one another. Lorenzo and others knew it back in the day and they wrote the book on how to easily apply the formula at any airline. Elitist pilots, mysterious new Canadian and Brazilian jets, a new format of internet ticket sales, and finally 9/11 created the perfect situation for the bean counters. What kills me is you elitists are still falling for it and simply blaming other pilots! I say take some responsibility and quit giving management such wet dreams by simply blaming other pilots.
I pray you guys can do what you're hoping to do and put an end to the subcontracting of mainline sized equipment and if it costs me my current job I think it will be for the better.
Unfortunately those pilots eventually caught the Captainitis and began to feel elite and that they should make their regional jet job worth staying at for the rest of their career so when contract negotiations came around they did exactly that. They bargained for what they felt they were worth but it came at the expense of others. FOs would never make over $40 an hour just so the captains could line their pockets and make over $100 an hour. They would justify their selfish behavior by saying things like "they'll upgrade so fast it won't matter" and "FOs are just using the job as a stepping stone, I'm here until I retire." Next thing you know the only way regionals can hire new pilots is by lowing minimums to 250 hrs.
So is it the 300 hr wonder who has no spine to stand up for what he's worth really the problem here? I don't think so. Mainline pilots understandably are angry now at what happened and no doubt realize how naive it was to not see these little go carts with wings for what they really were.. a threat to your livelihood and to the entire industry.
The bean counters laugh all the way to the bank because they know that proud pilots are the most easily exploitable labor who will readily defecate on one another. Lorenzo and others knew it back in the day and they wrote the book on how to easily apply the formula at any airline. Elitist pilots, mysterious new Canadian and Brazilian jets, a new format of internet ticket sales, and finally 9/11 created the perfect situation for the bean counters. What kills me is you elitists are still falling for it and simply blaming other pilots! I say take some responsibility and quit giving management such wet dreams by simply blaming other pilots.
I pray you guys can do what you're hoping to do and put an end to the subcontracting of mainline sized equipment and if it costs me my current job I think it will be for the better.
04-13-2011, 10:08 AM
#27
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Fugazi
These pilots you loath for flying RJs for too small a wage should be flying turbo props. Unfortunately they are not because the turbo prop flying companies were given RJs that your labor group and it's reps said were OK to give them. To place blame on the guys who were happily paying their dues in turbo props is absurd. They were handed jets and a better pay scale to continue doing the same job. All they had to do was just keep showing up to work and collect a bigger paycheck.
Unfortunately those pilots eventually caught the Captainitis and began to feel elite and that they should make their regional jet job worth staying at for the rest of their career so when contract negotiations came around they did exactly that. They bargained for what they felt they were worth but it came at the expense of others. FOs would never make over $40 an hour just so the captains could line their pockets and make over $100 an hour. They would justify their selfish behavior by saying things like "they'll upgrade so fast it won't matter" and "FOs are just using the job as a stepping stone, I'm here until I retire." Next thing you know the only way regionals can hire new pilots is by lowing minimums to 250 hrs.
So is it the 300 hr wonder who has no spine to stand up for what he's worth really the problem here? I don't think so. Mainline pilots understandably are angry now at what happened and no doubt realize how naive it was to not see these little go carts with wings for what they really were.. a threat to your livelihood and to the entire industry.
The bean counters laugh all the way to the bank because they know that proud pilots are the most easily exploitable labor who will readily defecate on one another. Lorenzo and others knew it back in the day and they wrote the book on how to easily apply the formula at any airline. Elitist pilots, mysterious new Canadian and Brazilian jets, a new format of internet ticket sales, and finally 9/11 created the perfect situation for the bean counters. What kills me is you elitists are still falling for it and simply blaming other pilots! I say take some responsibility and quit giving management such wet dreams by simply blaming other pilots.
I pray you guys can do what you're hoping to do and put an end to the subcontracting of mainline sized equipment and if it costs me my current job I think it will be for the better.
Unfortunately those pilots eventually caught the Captainitis and began to feel elite and that they should make their regional jet job worth staying at for the rest of their career so when contract negotiations came around they did exactly that. They bargained for what they felt they were worth but it came at the expense of others. FOs would never make over $40 an hour just so the captains could line their pockets and make over $100 an hour. They would justify their selfish behavior by saying things like "they'll upgrade so fast it won't matter" and "FOs are just using the job as a stepping stone, I'm here until I retire." Next thing you know the only way regionals can hire new pilots is by lowing minimums to 250 hrs.
So is it the 300 hr wonder who has no spine to stand up for what he's worth really the problem here? I don't think so. Mainline pilots understandably are angry now at what happened and no doubt realize how naive it was to not see these little go carts with wings for what they really were.. a threat to your livelihood and to the entire industry.
The bean counters laugh all the way to the bank because they know that proud pilots are the most easily exploitable labor who will readily defecate on one another. Lorenzo and others knew it back in the day and they wrote the book on how to easily apply the formula at any airline. Elitist pilots, mysterious new Canadian and Brazilian jets, a new format of internet ticket sales, and finally 9/11 created the perfect situation for the bean counters. What kills me is you elitists are still falling for it and simply blaming other pilots! I say take some responsibility and quit giving management such wet dreams by simply blaming other pilots.
I pray you guys can do what you're hoping to do and put an end to the subcontracting of mainline sized equipment and if it costs me my current job I think it will be for the better.
Carl
04-13-2011, 01:55 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 133
You're quite welcome. The larger the number of major pilots who understand the dynamics of what really went down the better the chance that you guys will all stand strong together and put an end to subcontracting mainline sized aircraft. Trust me.. plenty of us regional guys would love to see this.
04-13-2011, 04:40 PM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by FLEX
While that is certainly a reason, I would say that "shortsightedness" is the primary cause. The regional job is a means-to-an-end for most in the industry. Get your thousand hours of PIC and then move on to your career airline.
04-13-2011, 05:41 PM
#30
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Fugazi
You're quite welcome. The larger the number of major pilots who understand the dynamics of what really went down the better the chance that you guys will all stand strong together and put an end to subcontracting mainline sized aircraft. Trust me.. plenty of us regional guys would love to see this.
Carl
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