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Originally Posted by The Dominican
(Post 1000525)
That is just one more of the things pilots have convinced themselves in the U.S. that it is part of their obligation to do for free, I certainly don't deal with MEL's that is what maintenance is for
I'm with you. All you do here is get rid of a second opinion by taking MX out of the loop. I can think of a few times when I've looked up the MEL for MX while waiting for them to arrive. When they got there, I had decided on the wrong one to apply. I have also seen MX try to apply an MEL that I've disagreed with and we found that I had determined a more appropriate one. The point is, there is a system of checks and balances if you keep MX involved. If you don't: 1) You're on your own with your safety and with the FAA 2) You'll soon have fewer stations with no MX because the company never sees airplanes stuck in the field. PIPE |
Originally Posted by pipe
(Post 1000782)
I'm with you. All you do here is get rid of a second opinion by taking MX out of the loop.
I can think of a few times when I've looked up the MEL for MX while waiting for them to arrive. When they got there, I had decided on the wrong one to apply. I have also seen MX try to apply an MEL that I've disagreed with and we found that I had determined a more appropriate one. The point is, there is a system of checks and balances if you keep MX involved. If you don't: 1) You're on your own with your safety and with the FAA 2) You'll soon have fewer stations with no MX because the company never sees airplanes stuck in the field. PIPE |
Has everybody missed the fact that the "wholly owned" current procedure has them push back with an open write up but they are more worried about getting paid for the phone call to get a control number?
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Originally Posted by grnclvrs
(Post 1000812)
Has everybody missed the fact that the "wholly owned" current procedure has them push back with an open write up but they are more worried about getting paid for the phone call to get a control number?
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Has everybody missed the fact that the "wholly owned" current procedure has them push back with an open write up but they are more worried about getting paid for the phone call to get a control number? And to drive the point home... the person you're calling to do a PIC deferral is the same person you would call to get a mechanic out to the plane... I'm all for getting properly compensated but...really? We're complaining about having to call someone we'd already be talking to anyway..? And wait a minute...we don't get paid when we're waiting for a mechanic, but we do get paid when the captain can just defer a burned out nav light and get us OUT of bumville, nowheresville and back home. |
Interesting comments.
The procedure we have always had has been this: 1) If a writeup occurs at a maint. station, we would call local maint. and they'd come out and decide whether to MEL the writeup or not. In most cases they would MEL the item, which would involve about 10 -20 minutes worth of paperwork on their part: a) accomplish the MEL provisos b) fill out the Action Taken block, which included the proper verbiage for the deferral, filling in Date, TAT (total airframe time), Station, and ATA # ((Airline Transport Assoc. Item #). c) fill in the far right block with their signature and employee number d) fill out the M.I.C. Sheet (Maintenance Item Control sheet) in the front of the logbook 1) Control Log page # 2) Item # 3) Date entered 4) Station 6) A discrepancies Summary, including the MEL# and Auth.# e) fill out one of the white three-sticker Aircraft Placards 1) complete registration number of the aircraft 2) Enter date placard was installed. 3) Enter station issuing the placard. 4) Enter complete MEL Manual item number. Include number on INOPERATIVE portion of the placard. 5) Enter authorization number. 6) Enter date of issuance. 7) Enter expiration criteria, (date, TAT, etc.), as directed by MOC. 8) Enter AML logbook page number that discovery was entered on. 9) Enter category code of repair interval. 10) Enter remarks (reason why item was deferred) and method of deferral compliance if applicable. 11) Enter signature and employee number who deferred the item. 12) Enter complete MEL Manual item number on the INOPERATIVE portion of the placard. 13) Enter complete MEL Manual item number on the INOPERATIVE portion of the placard. 14) The Aircraft Placard shall be placed on the inside cover of the AML The Maintenance personnel would return with the completed book in about 10-20 minutes and we'd be good to go. 2) If the writeup occurred at a non maintenance station, we would call Maintenance Ops Control (MOC), explain the writeup, and they would decide whether we could defer per a "Flight Crew MEL". If so, a "Flight Crew MEL" was issued, along with a MOC Control number and the MOC controller's employee number. THAT info would then be entered into the next Mechanical Discrepancies block below the original writeup, and a tiny little orange temporary Crew MEL sticker would be placed where the MEL book decreed it be placed. At that point we were good to go until the aircraft arrived at the next maintenance station (flying under a Crew MEL), at which point the local maintenance personnel would arrive at the aircraft, take the logbook, and issue a proper MEL per the procedures that I spelled out above, balancing out the original writeup and the block underneath it that the crew used to create the original "Crew MEL". With the new procedures, regardless of whether or not we are at a maintenance station or not, if we have a writeup, we are to call MOC. MOC will then determine whether a MEL will be issued. If so, we will accomplish all of the rather convulated writeup procedures detailed above ourselves, and issue a permanent MEL. Local Hub Maintenance will never have been in the loop - only MOC in Dallas. We've been told that we MUST dot every i and cross every t properly in terms of the data that must be entered (of course). If not, we may be subject to discipline and FAA enforcement. That's all fine and dandy except that we now have a LOT more data to enter and that data has to be entered not only on the LOG page of the logbook, but also on the MIC sheet, and the three sections of the MEL Placard - all with minimal training and no "experience". That's fine with me. However, as I've already told my base chief pilot, I will NOT be rushed when I do this and if it takes local maintenance 10-20 minutes to accomplish this, expect slow me to take significantly longer. They will take a big delay and will likely not recover it, considering our usual 25 minute turns. |
To put it more simply, would you rather not get paid for five minutes filling out an MEL on the phone with MX, or would you rather not get paid for 90 minutes waiting for a contract mechanic to come in from home on a Sunday morning at an outstation?
Comair has "balanced" MELs (or whatever you call it) since before I got here in 2003. Delta has rewarded us well for our efforts. MX does not "come look at" a pilot-deferred item until they're there to fix it. We also don't fly with open write-ups. But we don't pump gas or load bags. We're haughty that way. |
Originally Posted by 450knotOffice
(Post 1000988)
Interesting comments.
The procedure we have always had has been this: 1) If a writeup occurs at a maint. station, we would call local maint. and they'd come out and decide whether to MEL the writeup or not. In most cases they would MEL the item, which would involve about 10 -20 minutes worth of paperwork on their part: a) accomplish the MEL provisos b) fill out the Action Taken block, which included the proper verbiage for the deferral, filling in Date, TAT (total airframe time), Station, and ATA # ((Airline Transport Assoc. Item #). c) fill in the far right block with their signature and employee number d) fill out the M.I.C. Sheet (Maintenance Item Control sheet) in the front of the logbook 1) Control Log page # 2) Item # 3) Date entered 4) Station 6) A discrepancies Summary, including the MEL# and Auth.# e) fill out one of the white three-sticker Aircraft Placards 1) complete registration number of the aircraft 2) Enter date placard was installed. 3) Enter station issuing the placard. 4) Enter complete MEL Manual item number. Include number on INOPERATIVE portion of the placard. 5) Enter authorization number. 6) Enter date of issuance. 7) Enter expiration criteria, (date, TAT, etc.), as directed by MOC. 8) Enter AML logbook page number that discovery was entered on. 9) Enter category code of repair interval. 10) Enter remarks (reason why item was deferred) and method of deferral compliance if applicable. 11) Enter signature and employee number who deferred the item. 12) Enter complete MEL Manual item number on the INOPERATIVE portion of the placard. 13) Enter complete MEL Manual item number on the INOPERATIVE portion of the placard. 14) The Aircraft Placard shall be placed on the inside cover of the AML The Maintenance personnel would return with the completed book in about 10-20 minutes and we'd be good to go. 2) If the writeup occurred at a non maintenance station, we would call Maintenance Ops Control (MOC), explain the writeup, and they would decide whether we could defer per a "Flight Crew MEL". If so, a "Flight Crew MEL" was issued, along with a MOC Control number and the MOC controller's employee number. THAT info would then be entered into the next Mechanical Discrepancies block below the original writeup, and a tiny little orange temporary Crew MEL sticker would be placed where the MEL book decreed it be placed. At that point we were good to go until the aircraft arrived at the next maintenance station (flying under a Crew MEL), at which point the local maintenance personnel would arrive at the aircraft, take the logbook, and issue a proper MEL per the procedures that I spelled out above, balancing out the original writeup and the block underneath it that the crew used to create the original "Crew MEL". With the new procedures, regardless of whether or not we are at a maintenance station or not, if we have a writeup, we are to call MOC. MOC will then determine whether a MEL will be issued. If so, we will accomplish all of the rather convulated writeup procedures detailed above ourselves, and issue a permanent MEL. Local Hub Maintenance will never have been in the loop - only MOC in Dallas. We've been told that we MUST dot every i and cross every t properly in terms of the data that must be entered (of course). If not, we may be subject to discipline and FAA enforcement. That's all fine and dandy except that we now have a LOT more data to enter and that data has to be entered not only on the LOG page of the logbook, but also on the MIC sheet, and the three sections of the MEL Placard - all with minimal training and no "experience". That's fine with me. However, as I've already told my base chief pilot, I will NOT be rushed when I do this and if it takes local maintenance 10-20 minutes to accomplish this, expect slow me to take significantly longer. They will take a big delay and will likely not recover it, considering our usual 25 minute turns. |
Originally Posted by 450knotOffice
(Post 1000988)
2) If the writeup occurred at a non maintenance station, we would call Maintenance Ops Control (MOC), explain the writeup, and they would decide whether we could defer per a "Flight Crew MEL". If so, a "Flight Crew MEL" was issued, along with a MOC Control number and the MOC controller's employee number. THAT info would then be entered into the next Mechanical Discrepancies block below the original writeup, and a tiny little orange temporary Crew MEL sticker would be placed where the MEL book decreed it be placed. At that point we were good to go until the aircraft arrived at the next maintenance station (flying under a Crew MEL), at which point the local maintenance personnel would arrive at the aircraft, take the logbook, and issue a proper MEL per the procedures that I spelled out above, balancing out the original writeup and the block underneath it that the crew used to create the original "Crew MEL".
With the new procedures, regardless of whether or not we are at a maintenance station or not, if we have a writeup, we are to call MOC. MOC will then determine whether a MEL will be issued. If so, we will accomplish all of the rather convulated writeup procedures detailed above ourselves, and issue a permanent MEL. Local Hub Maintenance will never have been in the loop - only MOC in Dallas. We've been told that we MUST dot every i and cross every t properly in terms of the data that must be entered (of course). If not, we may be subject to discipline and FAA enforcement. That's all fine and dandy except that we now have a LOT more data to enter and that data has to be entered not only on the LOG page of the logbook, but also on the MIC sheet, and the three sections of the MEL Placard - all with minimal training and no "experience". That's fine with me. However, as I've already told my base chief pilot, I will NOT be rushed when I do this and if it takes local maintenance 10-20 minutes to accomplish this, expect slow me to take significantly longer. They will take a big delay and will likely not recover it, considering our usual 25 minute turns. Again, for AE to say there will be discipline and FAA enforcement sounds to me like: http://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/...handbasket.jpg that's a hand basket. |
Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 1001009)
To put it more simply, would you rather not get paid for five minutes filling out an MEL on the phone with MX, or would you rather not get paid for 90 minutes waiting for a contract mechanic to come in from home on a Sunday morning at an outstation?
Comair has "balanced" MELs (or whatever you call it) since before I got here in 2003. Delta has rewarded us well for our efforts. MX does not "come look at" a pilot-deferred item until they're there to fix it. We also don't fly with open write-ups. But we don't pump gas or load bags. We're haughty that way. We've ALWAYS deferred items per Crew MEL procedures. Very simple and very fast. See my post above. We'd write it up, call MOC, if we all agreed that it could be crew MEL'd, I'd get a MOC# and his employee number, fill out three lines in the crew log, put a little orange temporary crew MEL sticker wherever it needed to go, and that would be it. Good to go...until we got to a maintenance city at some point. Once we got to a maintenance station, the real maintenance folks would convert the Crew MEL to a normal MEL, which involves a LOT more paperwork procedure...WAY more. THIS is what our company has charged us with doing now. The opportunity for a **** up has gone WAY up and our FAA maintenance inspectors have not been kind to the company and associated employees in the past for paperwork lapses. |
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