MEL Balancing
 

Just wondering how many - if any - carriers have pilots balancing their own MEL entries? I'm hearing they are making our owned regional start doing it on the premise that many others do it; so I was wondering who else actually does that?

What do you mean by "Balancing?" Is that the same thing as a "Flight Crew Placard?"

I'll be damned if imma put that book on my head and walk around. The hat is bad enough.

If you're talking about doing the MEL procedure (placarding) ourselves, as pilots, XJT has done it for years and Colgan did it when I was there, too. We have the procedure outlined in our book and MX Control gives us the control # and sign-off. Saves a lot of time at the outstations. They even allow us to accomplish (M) items, so long as it doesn't involve special tools or skills (i.e. pulling and collaring circuit breakers).

Id be careful doing that at 9L. My last oral included a whole deal about MELs including one simple one, that could EASILY have been taken care of by the PIC, however it had an (M) and the check airman was looking for us to say "Maintenance must do it," not us.

I imagine the check airman has probably never read the preamble in your MEL.

I think he is at XE, not 9L.

He is asking if there are any other airlines out there that have the flight crew defer an item per an MEL and document it in the logbook like this:

Problem: overhead reading light seat 4B inop

corrective action: overhead reading light seat 4B deferred per MEL 21-18

The captain fills out both the problem and the corrective action part of the log book and MELs the light. Maintenance does not need to get involved until the MEL expires.

This is done at outstations and hubs with maintenance while the mechanics sit in the break room and watch basketball. American Eagle is the only airline I know that does this.

What I don't like is that there are many things that are MELable that are an indication of more problems. An example would be on an APU start with a bad GPU you can get the Autopilot/yaw damper fail which on the Embraer is an indication of an IC 600 taking a dump. The autopilot and yaw damper are MELable but the IC 600 is not and can lead to big problems down the road.

We can do it for certain items at Delta.

Delta, Colgan, and Allegiant do it. As far as your example goes, I used to be a mechanic and when I show up to defer your autopilot and yaw damper I couldn't give a crap about your IC 600 unless the MEL says to look at it.

I'm confused about what "balancing" means, is the question whether there are airlines that allow their crews to write something up and per MX permission MEL it in the logbook and then placard it and high five the next crew with news the autothrottles and FMS are on MEL?

Surely every airline has an MEL procedure that doesn't involve a mechanic coming to the airplane don't they?


If you google MMEL FAA, it will come up with the Flight Standards IMS page in which you can pull up the FAA's Master MEL book for any aircraft. In there is this under definitions:



^^ That was from the BAE146, where you can MEL one of the 5 APUs. :D I lie.

Just read it. I see what your saying. But its typically wordy, and I could easily see one fed saying that a pilot may be able to accomplish whats listed next to the (M) and then another fed saying "yea, no."

So, now that we've explained it so everybody understands the question correctly...

whose airlines are having pilots do the the mechanics jobs? What did you get for the change of working conditions? How was it negotiated?

it is my understanding that at our owned regional, the company just implemented this new duty without any negotiations whatsoever. Removed the duty from one employee group (mechanics) and implemented it on the pilots.

So, what other airlines do it; how was it implemented, and what did you get for it?

It is very specific what items are able to be flight crew placarded and what aren't at DL. It breaks it down to what you can always placard, what you can placard at a non-mx station, and what you always have to have mechanic for.

It was similar but not as specific at Pinnacle.

So if a light or something burned out at an outstation, you had to call a wrench out? That's pretty inefficient. It all boils down to what is fed approved in your MEL. If you always have to have a wrench, don't let them push you. Know your responsibility and hold them to it.

Pilots can make maintenance deferrals with dispatcher concurrence and continue operations.

The line is pretty easy to see. Pilots can not use tools. Pilots can not be forced into using abnormal checklists. Supplemental and expanded checklists are OK.

Master MEL's are created by the manufacturer. The FAA signs off on the MEL.

The Captain is the last guarantor of airworthiness and safety of flight. If you are the Captain and don't want to do it, don't. ... If you are the first officer, raise your concern, then do your job.

None ... can't happen under the regs.

Ok, is it a temp placard that just covers you until you get to a MX base? Or are you applying the MEL and deferring the item until they get around to fixing it whenever that may be.

It's a standard deferral and subject to the repair period applicable to the MEL if the placard is allowed.

What did you guys get for it? They have our regional now doing that type of MEL balancing, where they get an MOC authorization number, enter the MEL deferal and start the clock on the repair depending on what category the item is. I'm hearing they're being alloowd to crew placardmand balance things like the Fadecs and stuff that really should be looked at by a MX person. I can see placarding until it makes it to a mx base, but writing something up and baancing the entry for something that may go 120 days before getting a mx look-see sounds a bit much...

so, who else is balancing out their own write-ups?

I have never heard of the term "balancing". I guess it is the same as a flight crew placard. Obviously something that is serious would not have an option for a flight crew placard. Most flight crew placards are simple things like a light bulb.

Edited as extraneous.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's part of the job. Know your responsibilities.

I to, am waiting for the OP to explaining and define exactly what "MEL Balancing" is.
Never heard that term before.

That is just one more of the things pilots have convinced themselves in the U.S. that it is part of their obligation to do for free, I certainly don't deal with MEL's that is what maintenance is for

Well, it's just a matter of time until they try to implement this here too. This goes beyond flight crew placarding which I think almost all of us do, so we can continue on to a MX base. There seem to be very few that actually have pilots entering the MEL deferral, coordinating with MX Ops, and then flying the plane for however long the MEL says it can go before having it fixed or even looked at by a MX technician.

Some seem to think this is part of their job simply because their company says it is. These are probably the same folks who don't read their contracts and have no clue about the provisions within the RLA for changes to working conditions or rules.

I'm just glad that madness hasn't infected our pilot group yet.... Although with the number of new flow thru's lately who knows if we'll still have as solid a pilot group in another few years.

In short, their pilot group had never done this before. It was always a MX function. The company had unilaterally transferred the duties of another labor union employee (mechanics) to the pilots. Contracts aside... That's a no no under the RLA last I checked. Hope they fight it and win.

This ALPA MEC American Eagle. It was done with there knowledge and they did nothing and got nothing. ALPA MEC at work, for management.

Is there some sort of code talk going on here about a regional airline doing what again? Is this balancing ensuring one MEL doesn't conflict with another?

Mason what airline are you at? Using an MEL is a part of every 121 and 135 job I've seen, what is it you want extra pay for? And is this something that goes beyond what the FAA allows pilots to do with an MEL?

Or I'm going to have to pull out and post "the picture" here...

I think he means something like this:

http://www.personal.kent.edu/~cearle...H8_balance.png


This came up on googling "balancing boobs." I prefer this kind of balance:

http://www.cavemancircus.com/wp-cont...al_boobs_8.jpg

It takes all of one minute to fill out a flight crew placard. I can't see delaying the flight over an hour to call contract maintenance just for the principle of getting paid for that one minute.

This is not about a flight crew placard. Like you said, everyone does flight crew placarding. Before, when we would flight crew placard, we would leave with an "open write up" that would be signed off or "balanced" by maintenance when we arrived in a maintenance base. That is no longer the case. This is about the pilots doing the corrective action part of the log book or "balancing" it as Mason said and maintenance not even looking at the MELed equipment for the length the MEL is good for.

This is a step that maintenance would usually take 30 minutes to an hour to complete . In order to reduce delays, management thought it would be a good idea to put that responsibility on the pilots.

The writeup is considered signed off with a flight crew placard at the carriers that I've worked at. It is applicable to the standard deferral period.

Then you haven't been putting things on MEL. You've been writing it up. You wouldn't have needed to placard anything? An MEL isn't any good until you've written this item is "APU INOP." Call maintenance, tell them, get a control number and then write "APU deffered per MEL XXXX and control number ####".

So this is something new to what airline?

BTW, I'm not paid to load the FMS. Nor am I paid to pull back on the elevator at VR. Or paid extra to meet stabilized approach criteria and landing inside the TDZ on the centerline. Or walk around in the rain. Or say goodbye to the passengers. Or MEL broken stuff.

No, we would do that to get it into a maintenance base to have it looked over by a mechanic to see if there is a more serious problem. We do not have access to the maintenance pages of the MFDs that the mechanics use to troubleshoot problems. Now we are flying 3-5 days with MELed Ignitors, altitude selectors, flight guidance controllers, TCAS, GPWSs, fuel quantity indicators, VOR receivers, LAVs, FADECs etc.

I have no problem doing this on small things like a burnt out overhead light bulb but I do have a problem with something that might affect the safety of flight.

Guess this must be an Eagle thing. So if it not "balanced" as you say then maintenance gets to come out and put it in the book again on the MEL? If an item can be flight crew placarded and "balanced" then it is usually a very minor item anyway. Are you saying you would rather have maintenance come out again just to confirm the MEL? They are not going to fix it anyway, balanced or not, unless they have enough time if it can be deferred.

If it is something that might affect the safety of flight then you wouldn't be able to flight crew placard it in the first place.

If those items can be MEL'd per the MEL for the aircraft then you're good to go though. All of the MEL's have time limits listed as category A, B, C, D.

For example, an ERJ-145 can have an ignition system on MEL. According to the MMEL you have 4, you only need 3 provided that (O) One may be inoperative provided engine is started by positioning the ignition selector knob to ON. It's category B so that falls under this:
So you write it up then you call MX get a control number and maybe an amendment to your flight plan then you put that it was deferred per MEL 74-20-00. The next guy gets the plane tonight and sees 74-20-00 and looks it up in the MEL book and sees the new procedure will be to select ON and that this is valid as a category B item until Wednesday night at midnight then it's a pumpkin.

It's up to maintenance control and you to ensure if there are multiple MELs that could make a compounding issue.

So I take it this is American Eagle?

OK for those confused.

1. The captain writes up, APU INOP.
2. Captain (if it is flight crew placard able) flight crew placards it as MEL whatever, MOC control number. When the plane came into a MX base, MX would come out and place a permanent MEL in the MX side of the MX log book the MX corrective action block.

3. Now the Captain regarding the item will be required to flight crew placard and do the MX corrective action and be responsible that all previous MEL's are appropriate (which is what MX used to do) and MX will not come to see the MX issue until the MEL runs out.

Terminology may be different from one airline to the next. Every company I worked for the left side of the MX Log Book was filled in by Captain and MX but only MX will fill out the right side of the MX Log Book. Now we are doing MX administrative work which has additional legalities via the FAR's.

But never fear, the ALPA MEC is hard at work giving the store away.

Would you consider not having GPWS a safety of flight issue while going into RNO or any airport in CO? What about not having TCAS while going into SAN or any other socal airport with VFR traffic scattered everywhere. I've had multiple RAs there without ever seeing the aircraft and I was looking.

Good grief....

Be a captain and don't accept an airplane like that.

That's an odd procedure not to complete both the discrepancy side "CAPTAIN TCAS INOP" and the corrective action side says that the TCAS is on MEL per 34-43-00.

To put everything on the discrepancy side is leaving the corrective side blank, as in it's not resolved and you're flying with an open write up. But if thats what AE had approved then so be it, but if they're changing it then welcome to normalcy.

I don't see why maintenance needs to come out at a maintenance hub and do anything about it. If there isn't a TCAS to replace it or they don't want to deal with it then they've got either 10 days (according to that MEL) until it's grounded unless of course the other goes out then it's grounded immediately.

But to I guess after 3 pages answer the OP question, yes, Delta has you write on both sides of the log page. I want to say Coex did too but I don't frankly remember.

Also per the Delta FOM the Captain and Maintenance Coordinator have joint responsibility to ensure that MEL expiration periods are not exceeded for MEL Category B, C, and D items.