Delta posts $765M profit in 3Q
10-26-2011 | 01:02 PM
#51
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Sorry the pay data did not format well but you can read it. I wish I could post a 747 CA's numbers I talked with on the lounge a few days ago. He made the 767 CA look like a piker!
10-26-2011 | 01:28 PM
#52
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From: 737 Left Seat
The numbers are probably fine. Keep in mind that 166,000 was the average for all pilots. There are lots of SW pilots who fly almost full time in the reserves as a example. Same thing at Delta. There are Delta 767 Captains who will not make 150,000 k this year by choice. There are lots of Delta 767 CA's who will break 250K this year. There are guys who had second business at both airlines. Many consider the airlines there second job. Lots of Delta guys over 60 now flying 20 hours a month. Same at SW I suspect. The number to look at is the difference. Delta was at 142,000 last year on average an SW at 166,000 using company reports. Delta gets 5 percent more in the DC fund not reflected in those numbers and there is a 4 percent raise in 3 months.
The data in those reports is what will be used when you are before the NMB. Not the data from a welcome packet. The numbers come straight from the companies operational reports. Here is a W2 for the last pay period for a 767 Delta CA. Pretax he is at 269,000 with 2 months yet to go. He has not worked that hard but he works smart! Is he the norm, not at all but the norm rarely gets posted.
Payments: - Gross Earnings Pretax Ins and 401K Taxes Deductions Net Pay Direct Deposit Current $15857.69 $321.49 $4416.51 $671.28 $0.00 $10391.75 Year To Date $269936.52 $28486.31 $72234.80 $15263.46 $0.00 $152875.41
The data in those reports is what will be used when you are before the NMB. Not the data from a welcome packet. The numbers come straight from the companies operational reports. Here is a W2 for the last pay period for a 767 Delta CA. Pretax he is at 269,000 with 2 months yet to go. He has not worked that hard but he works smart! Is he the norm, not at all but the norm rarely gets posted.
Payments: - Gross Earnings Pretax Ins and 401K Taxes Deductions Net Pay Direct Deposit Current $15857.69 $321.49 $4416.51 $671.28 $0.00 $10391.75 Year To Date $269936.52 $28486.31 $72234.80 $15263.46 $0.00 $152875.41
Take a good look at this page:
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...20Analysis.htm
Take a good look at the P-10 data listed, it's obviously wrong, you can't possibly think that it's correct.
TransStats will pick up a revision next week...
After the revision, the correct average wages should be able to be calculated, and it will be higher than $186,000. Matter of fact, my estimation is at around $193,000 per year average for all SWA pilots including those with their own business, those in the reserves, blah blah blah.
I'll get to total compensation later.
Last edited by LuvJockey; 10-26-2011 at 01:46 PM.
10-26-2011 | 01:50 PM
#53
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Joined: Aug 2010
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I know that you're trying to ignore me, but $166,000 was not the average for all SWA pilots. You can repeat it all you want, that doesn't mean that it's right. The data that you're using is obviously flawed.
Take a good look at this page:
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...20Analysis.htm
Take a good look at the P-10 data listed, it's obviously wrong, you can't possibly think that it's correct.
TransStats will pick up a revision next week...
After the revision, the correct average wages should be able to be calculated, and it will be higher than $186,000. Matter of fact, my estimation is at around $193,000 per year average for all SWA pilots including those with their own business, those in the reserves, blah blah blah.
I'll get to total compensation later.
Take a good look at this page:
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...20Analysis.htm
Take a good look at the P-10 data listed, it's obviously wrong, you can't possibly think that it's correct.
TransStats will pick up a revision next week...
After the revision, the correct average wages should be able to be calculated, and it will be higher than $186,000. Matter of fact, my estimation is at around $193,000 per year average for all SWA pilots including those with their own business, those in the reserves, blah blah blah.
I'll get to total compensation later.
10-26-2011 | 02:23 PM
#54
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,077
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For every 1 guy like these, there are 25 + FO's, sitting reserve (not by choice), on the hook for 18 days of work per month, for 70 hours pay - month, after month, after month...
10-26-2011 | 02:41 PM
#55
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From: 767ER capt
I'm wondering how it would be possible for the SWA data to be off by that much, given the way the data is collected. Is it being inferred here that Southwest lied on their BTS P10 form?
10-26-2011 | 03:01 PM
#56
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From: Captain Jack
enough about who gets more,,,,,,what does this profit say for our share checks? someone said earlier half. Is that close you think?
10-26-2011 | 03:25 PM
#57
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From: 737 Left Seat
Let me think here - roughly the difference between average compensation at SWA vs Delta is $193,000/$142,000. By my estimates, Delta's avg pay in ALL aircraft has to increase 36% to equal SWA wages. I have no idea what that means for narrow body rates, but I am estimating that it has to be around a 50% raise just to equal SWA wages.
You want real numbers, I'm about to give you enough to make your eyes water...for free. Why the heck can't you guys gather this information yourself when there are millions of dollars in compensation at stake? Profit sharing? Yougottabekiddinme.
Last edited by LuvJockey; 10-26-2011 at 03:40 PM.
10-26-2011 | 03:43 PM
#58
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From: 767ER capt
I'm sure that'll be the next line. SWA lied in order to lowball Delta's pilot negotiations. SWA is coming to ATL. SWA is undercutting our fares. SWA is buying pizza for ATC. SWA is killing kittens...
Let me think here - roughly the difference between average compensation at SWA vs Delta is $193,000/$142,000. By my estimates, Delta's avg pay in ALL aircraft has to increase 36% to equal SWA wages. I have no idea what that means for narrow body rates, but I am estimating that it has to be around a 50% raise just for equity.
You want real numbers, I'm about to give you enough to make your eyes water.
Let me think here - roughly the difference between average compensation at SWA vs Delta is $193,000/$142,000. By my estimates, Delta's avg pay in ALL aircraft has to increase 36% to equal SWA wages. I have no idea what that means for narrow body rates, but I am estimating that it has to be around a 50% raise just for equity.
You want real numbers, I'm about to give you enough to make your eyes water.
For what it's worth, I'm glad that you guys were able to keep your pay rates when much of the rest of the industry collapsed over the last decade. Because of Southwest, we have a point of reference for recovering our contract.
As for Southwest coming to ATL, that's not even on my radar. When Southwest starts flying from New York to Prague and Venice, then I may take notice.
I'm having trouble with you saying one thing, and a government form saying something else. Why are the numbers so different?
10-26-2011 | 03:48 PM
#59
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From: 737 Left Seat
I'm not baiting you, nor am I Southwest bashing. I really want to know.
For what it's worth, I'm glad that you guys were able to keep your pay rates when much of the rest of the industry collapsed over the last decade. Because of Southwest, we have a point of reference for recovering our contract.
As for Southwest coming to ATL, that's not even on my radar. When Southwest starts flying from New York to Prague and Venice, then I may take notice.
I'm having trouble with you saying one thing, and a government form saying something else. Why are the numbers so different?
For what it's worth, I'm glad that you guys were able to keep your pay rates when much of the rest of the industry collapsed over the last decade. Because of Southwest, we have a point of reference for recovering our contract.
As for Southwest coming to ATL, that's not even on my radar. When Southwest starts flying from New York to Prague and Venice, then I may take notice.
I'm having trouble with you saying one thing, and a government form saying something else. Why are the numbers so different?
Long and short, huge error in SWA 2010 Part 10 submission. Looks to me like they had counted flight attendant management numbers with pilots, along with another weird change. In order for the submitted number to be correct, we would have had to grown by 15% in 2010. I don't think that we've ever managed that in 40 years and we most certainly didn't do it without adding a single pilot to the seniority list. All of our management pilots are already on our seniority list, as are our medical and military leave types. My personal suspicions are that it could have been a move to lessen an apparent increase in SWA management compensation, but that's a topic for another thread.
I just don't know yet how the total compensation numbers changed. If they included the other workgroup's compensation with pilot compensation, then the avg SWA will be over my $193,000 estimate. If they only erred on the pilot numbers side, it should be around $193,000.
How it happened, I don't know. Been trying all day. I am serious, there will be a major revision that shows up in the numbers next week.
10-26-2011 | 03:53 PM
#60
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From: 767ER capt
Sorry, got carried away.
Long and short, huge error in SWA 2010 Part 10 submission. Looks to me like they had counted flight attendant management numbers with pilots.
I just don't know yet how the total compensation numbers changed. If they included the other workgroup's compensation with pilot compensation, then the avg SWA will be over my $193,000 estimate.
How it happened, I don't know. Been trying all day.
Long and short, huge error in SWA 2010 Part 10 submission. Looks to me like they had counted flight attendant management numbers with pilots.
I just don't know yet how the total compensation numbers changed. If they included the other workgroup's compensation with pilot compensation, then the avg SWA will be over my $193,000 estimate.
How it happened, I don't know. Been trying all day.
My reason for being concerned is that we have to go into negotiations with hard data, rather than anecdotal evidence. By any metrics out there, we're due a large raise. The data, among other things, will determine the size of that raise.
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