The Cyclical ways of aviation
10-25-2006, 12:15 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
Originally Posted by duvie
Pilots do try to milk every penny from management. I bet if management offered pilots a 25% increase across the board the pilot group of any major would accept it. The way the game works is simple. Pilots push management to get the highest wages possible, regardless of the airline's financial situation, and management has to decide how much they can afford to give the pilots after they've cashed the paychecks for the company officers and VPs. So basically they're greedy and we're stupid. I wonder why four of the six legacy carriers have been in bankrupcy in the last three years.
10-26-2006, 09:55 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 777, sofa
Posts: 1,183
Historical pay rates
Doing a little web surfing, I have not been able to locate any hard data on historical pay rates, but I did find a couple items of intrest. The first is a message board with TWA pilots discussing thier rate of pay as newhires circa 1967.(1) Which is a convienent date as it is the base year for the CPI (CPI=100). The second is a cover page from an article written in 1953 for Industrial and Labor Relations Review. (2) It indicates that pilot wages range from $8000 to $11000, and questions the need of unions for employees who make so much!
The CPI data is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics websites. (3) (4)
YEAR..... CPI...... Annual Wage/Equipment..... Sep 2006 Dollars
1953......80....... 8,000...... /... ??? .......... 61000
1953......80...... 11,000....../... ??? ............ 83875
TWA
1967....100...... 6,900 / 1 yr 707 FE...... 42090
1968....104..... 14400 / 2 yr 707 FE...... 84461
1971....121..... 18000 / 4 yr 707 FE...... 90743
1971....121..... 21600 / 5 yr 707? FE.... 108892
1976....171..... 51600 / 9yr L1011 FE?... 184070
2006....610
One post on that forum indicates that F/Es made 60%, and F/Os 70% of CA wages. Extrapolating from that, and comparing to guarantee... (AA's is only 64 hours)
. . . . . . . . . . . . TWA Historical. . . . . 2006 Dollars . . . . . . Current FDX. . . . . . . .Current AA
YEAR . . . . . . . . . . FO...... CA. . . . . . FO.......CA. . . . . . . FO........ CA. . . . . . FO........ CA
1968.... 2yr nb..... 16800... 24000..... 98538... 140769...... 93240... 155400..... 56832... 114432
1971.... 4yr nb..... 21000... 30000.... 105867... 151239...... 98568... 156288..... 70656... 115968
1976.... 9yr wb.... 60200... 86000.... 214748... 306783..... 127872... 187368..... 86784... 130560
These numbers do not assume top out - they are direct proportions based on the FE scale (i.e. 24000 in 1968 is second year Captain's pay). Assuming top of scale in 1967 was $4500/mo or $54000/yr, the equivalent would be almost $330,000 in today's dollars. Compared to FDX @ $199,800 and AA @ $152,832
In summation, FDX rates are on target with TWA's historical scales, but AA pilots, and by extention all other Majors, have about 1/2 the purchasing power of the late '60s.
(1) http://www.smilinjack.com/cgi/ultima...;f=18;t=000208
(2) http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=001...2-3&size=LARGE
(3) http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/historiccpi.html
(4) http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost
The CPI data is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics websites. (3) (4)
YEAR..... CPI...... Annual Wage/Equipment..... Sep 2006 Dollars
1953......80....... 8,000...... /... ??? .......... 61000
1953......80...... 11,000....../... ??? ............ 83875
TWA
1967....100...... 6,900 / 1 yr 707 FE...... 42090
1968....104..... 14400 / 2 yr 707 FE...... 84461
1971....121..... 18000 / 4 yr 707 FE...... 90743
1971....121..... 21600 / 5 yr 707? FE.... 108892
1976....171..... 51600 / 9yr L1011 FE?... 184070
2006....610
One post on that forum indicates that F/Es made 60%, and F/Os 70% of CA wages. Extrapolating from that, and comparing to guarantee... (AA's is only 64 hours)
. . . . . . . . . . . . TWA Historical. . . . . 2006 Dollars . . . . . . Current FDX. . . . . . . .Current AA
YEAR . . . . . . . . . . FO...... CA. . . . . . FO.......CA. . . . . . . FO........ CA. . . . . . FO........ CA
1968.... 2yr nb..... 16800... 24000..... 98538... 140769...... 93240... 155400..... 56832... 114432
1971.... 4yr nb..... 21000... 30000.... 105867... 151239...... 98568... 156288..... 70656... 115968
1976.... 9yr wb.... 60200... 86000.... 214748... 306783..... 127872... 187368..... 86784... 130560
These numbers do not assume top out - they are direct proportions based on the FE scale (i.e. 24000 in 1968 is second year Captain's pay). Assuming top of scale in 1967 was $4500/mo or $54000/yr, the equivalent would be almost $330,000 in today's dollars. Compared to FDX @ $199,800 and AA @ $152,832
In summation, FDX rates are on target with TWA's historical scales, but AA pilots, and by extention all other Majors, have about 1/2 the purchasing power of the late '60s.
(1) http://www.smilinjack.com/cgi/ultima...;f=18;t=000208
(2) http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=001...2-3&size=LARGE
(3) http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/historiccpi.html
(4) http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost
Last edited by robthree; 10-27-2006 at 05:43 AM.
10-27-2006, 03:38 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B-777 Captain
Posts: 943
Another thought ..... Back when I flew with the Great Silver Fleet my Father who worked for Shell Oil and was part of management and I would often get into discussions about unions. He was actually very pro union. His point being that it was a check and balance system.
Without a union management will ALWAYS have an excuse not to pay pilots a fair wage for the work they do. Were buying new airplanes, or were building a new hub, heck do you know much logo lights cost per airplane.
If pilots could get management to pay a million dollars for a days worth of work we would. But the company wouldn't last very long. On the other hand if management could get pilots to fly for a dollar a day the profits would go sky high but no one would stay as one needs to feed his family. Some where in the middle is a happy medimum. Which is the reason for a union.
Pilots don't run a company into the ground, management does. Which is the same reason that soldiers, sailors, and marines don't run the war..... Admirals and generals do...................
Without a union management will ALWAYS have an excuse not to pay pilots a fair wage for the work they do. Were buying new airplanes, or were building a new hub, heck do you know much logo lights cost per airplane.
If pilots could get management to pay a million dollars for a days worth of work we would. But the company wouldn't last very long. On the other hand if management could get pilots to fly for a dollar a day the profits would go sky high but no one would stay as one needs to feed his family. Some where in the middle is a happy medimum. Which is the reason for a union.
Pilots don't run a company into the ground, management does. Which is the same reason that soldiers, sailors, and marines don't run the war..... Admirals and generals do...................
Last edited by JetJocF14; 10-27-2006 at 04:03 AM.
10-27-2006, 06:55 AM
#16
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
WoW !!
Excellent Post !!
Back in the 60's and 70's there were no regional airlines. I wonder how much a career expectation is cut when you compare traditional pay rates at TWA against the regionals?
SkyHigh
Back in the 60's and 70's there were no regional airlines. I wonder how much a career expectation is cut when you compare traditional pay rates at TWA against the regionals?
SkyHigh
10-27-2006, 07:35 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by JetJocF14
Pilots don't run a company into the ground, management does. Which is the same reason that soldiers, sailors, and marines don't run the war..... Admirals and generals do...................
I agreed with everything you said in your post..........except Politicians run the war (Ruin the war) instead of listening to the Generals and Admirals. Just look at the present day Fiasco. Or the Indo China War during the 60's.
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