It's not about me... not sure why you care what I think... what is more important is what you think..... see the last paragraph below...

But comprehend my message... here it is again...

read the thread... I don't care... really... you guys can fester and wither on the vine.... so many airlines like JB have come and gone... why are you special? Does the free market have a special 'invisible hand' just for you?

you seem to want to be woo'ed and coddled... romanced.. wined and dined for your ALPA vote... just like you were for your JB culture loyalty... joining ALPA is about representing yourself, not being validated, confirmed, or getting a trophy for showing up.... this is another reason why you guys should keep the status quo...

and I've stated on this thread, I don't want my dues money wasted on you guys... we need our dues money for us... not some juice drinkers looking for a better deal on a new benefactor... if you think unions are best for you then get hired elsewhere, that is your best bet...... if you think JB is your utopia, then stay.....

We just have vastly different definitions of what "fair" is. To you that's sliding over to a legacy with your same percentage of relative, likely with little to no fence and probably pre-divesture. Then when the divesture happens, the bottom would be chopped off the total which would be almost completely legacy pilots with 1 or 2 JB "classes" that might be effected. I see why you would think that would be "fair" but that would give the JB pilot group a massive, earth shattering windfall. 1 to 2 year FO's integrated with 10-12+ year FO's? JB FO's only there a few months jumping in front of 2007-2010 hires? And that's not even getting into "senior Captain" levels. That would really get interesting.

You feel like you are entitled to that. Relative is your personal "gold standard". Fine. Like I said, go for it. Go for it hard core. But from the POV of a legacy pilot group that has suffered massive stagnation while JB has enjoyed stratospherical growth don't expect them to just go along with it. Ironically the federal merger law could box in any pilot group/company that attempts to negotiate something "fair" whatever that may be. Even if a majority of JB pilots agreed, being non union would mean some would sue anyway for their individual rights and the whole thing could wind back up in front of an arbitrator who rubber stamps relative in the first place.

That's why SWA management and SWAPA got together and made sure the deal was structured outside that process. SWA had to go about it that way and SWAPA had to provide temporary contractual relief. But doing so put them in the drivers seat. Union or not, ALPA or not, don't expect a full relative windfall. Fully expect any legacy pilot group to do whatever is necessary to prevent thousands of pilots coming in many years or decades in front of their current pilots.

I don't want anything JB has. Not the routes (we already do most of them anyway) not the gates or slots (we have plenty) and not the terminal (the new 4 is plenty although there is obviously one more piece of the puzzle at work with the balls up in the air with 2 and 3 as well as other things going on around the airport). And we clearly don't need existing airframes or delivery slots as we are more than capabile of getting our own.

But some of the above might be in the cards especially as part of a multi party "trade". Or, worst case, we might go bat poo crazy and "buy" all of JB to get a small part of it and then divest most of it. In either case, no JB pilot should get relative seniority here, but current status quo leavs the possibility open if the deal is not structured properly in the first place. That said, IMO JB is far more likely to end up all or mostly in the hands of AA and/or SWA. Even if there is a cute little pre-merger first like VAm or Spirit or Frontier. All DL would need or want out of the deal would maybe a terminal shuffle with someone else and maybe a handful of slots. That's it. And that does not and should not ever equate to merger rights. If it somehow could, the deal needs to be strucured on the front end to avoid that.

As for JB leadership saying they have "no intention to merge at this time" LOLz! Don't even make me google cut and paste the quotes of all the other legacy airline CEO's that said right up until the merger was official that they didn't "intend" on merging. Even two that filed BK on the steps of the same courthouse on the same day, one hiring the other's former CEO and other pieces of the puzzle coming together for all to see, and right up until the day it was announced it was denied. I'd hope no one fell for it then, and I hope no one falls for it now.

Actually I've learned a little from this thread.... the mindset and attitudes of JB pilots... maybe it will be helpful to the OC... IMHO they have a nearly impossible battle of the minds... to convince JB pilots to reject their dependency/benefactor relationship with management and become their own agents....

Votes are often emotional and tied to identity.... IOW, to get someones vote you have to appeal to their emotions and make a connection to who they are.... is there an identity connection between JB pilots and ALPA?

That is what the JB culture is all about... to make you feel unique and special individuals... not a unified group. There is a reason why OO management spends money on Skywest pilots name tags. It certainly isn't needed, but it is easier to manipulate the individual instead of the collective. So the cost of the name tag is cheaper than an ALPA pin.....

As mentioned earlier in this thread... Plato's Cave is appropriate.... Good luck...

Once. Obviously, you don't have a lot of patience. It's a good thing the rest of ALPA isn't as unforgiving as you are.

Like the others said, what you think matters because it's blasted all over the internet. Plenty of lurkers come to this sight, see posts like yours and think "Well, if that's what being ALPA is like, count me out." Makes it harder on the rest of us to convince people it's not like that. It's pretty hard to tell someone "No, you really do matter and we need you on board" when ALPA guys are out there calling the people we're trying to convince "freeloaders" and "leeches." You might not like the touchy-feely part of the game, but politics is part of it.

We can look at airTran, Alaska and Spirit to know how we may be treated regardless of any tier bias Jetblue may tout.

Despite these two opinions we will vote in ALPA and we will be fine. When we merge with another carrier we will do as any other carriers would. Negotiate. Should we come to an impasse then we will rely on M/B, select an arbitrator and hope for the best.

Gloopy and Snarge are entitled to their opinion and thats fine.

The money will be recouped in less than a year. I think it's funny that united SUCKED for a long time and now that they have a better contract then they had this arrogant a hole comes out chest first.

Snarge talks about work rules, look at your reserve system. It is pathetic for a legacy to operate like that. I hope they enjoy having their days off rolled.

Let's be clear... there are plenty of ALPA haters at JB, from TWA and USAIR, etc... while their angst and grievances might be valid, it is a clear attitude of convenience. Not a business decision. A business choice is something everyone in industry makes. Even the CEO's have contracts...

But my point is... ALPA has its own problems and really isn't in a position to inviting new MECs... oh they will do it anyway, but the organization is better off cleaning house first... and I am entitled to my opinion that my dues money should be used for internal organizing.

But it is like that... you've had your own pilots come on this thread and get their panties wadded because I am not singing to up to your balcony.... stroking ego's and working the hard sell to join ALPA... this is business, a multi million dollar career... not an ego stroke off....

It should not be like this for two reasons:

1. your pilot group should see the fundamental, essential reason for representation and claim it for yourselves. Not the pretty please beg, join ALPA hard sell. That is for children and teenage boys trying to get laid Sat. night. Especially for the second time...

2. ALPA should have its house in order well enough that a significant majority of JB pilots readily want to join. That is ALPA's failure and flaw. And it should be corrected...

you are right... it is touchy feely... but I am done with it for the reasons mentioned above... I am just an dues paying member with no connection to the OC or ALPA official.....

but my opinion to the JB pilots remains..

grow up, man up, take control of your agency, quit taking the benefits for free, this isn't a hard sell job, do what all of us have been doing for 80 years, quit wasting ALPA money and time, sign your cards and join the profession. But if you don't... then you deserve whatever you get...

Fair enough?

Tough love is what these guys need. Southerner and Blueballs are no voters until something happens to THEM. I've seen guys like this before a million times. Keep it coming Snarge.

RHe's right. What are we supposed to do? Coddle you guys? We have had numerous debates on this and other threads, most of which you and the other no voters stop responding to when facts are presented. You said you wanted to work at JetBlue because there is no union. Your wish has been granted.

The no voters are either satisfied to work for less or are ignorant. My logbooks are almost up to date and I plan on trying to leave. I've been here 10 years and I'm tired of the lies and deception from JetBlue management. I've been on the OC and have had numerous conversations with yes and no voters. I'm tired of being nice, it's time for someone else to carry the torch. By refusing representation you are putting my family and myself in jeopardy. No more mister nice guy.

Mr. Nice Guy, that's funny.