DAL Scope Bait and Switch
05-23-2012, 09:13 AM
#1
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DAL Scope Bait and Switch
So the company needs a deal to get out of its multi-year 50 seat leases, some of them lasting until beyond 2020. So why did the company sign leases this long in the first place? Think about it - to get out from under the lease, they have to sign new leases with the same companies for 76 seat lift.
So was our management tremendously shortsighted? Possibly, but maybe they thought this through in the first place. I never understood the excessive length of these leases but now it is beginning to make sense.
Of all the shortcomings of this TA (and there are quite a few) - the Scope issues worry me the most. As a few have already said - I would rather have our current Scope then allow so, so many more 76 seat jets. The 50 seaters are dying a natural, albeit, slow death on their own. I am all for a 50 seat limit but we are giving away too many 76 seaters.
And it gets better. So our management gets out of 50 seat leases by signing excessively long 70 and 76 seat leases. Guess what happens in three years, probably as soon as they hit the new 76 seat limit. They need help to get out of these "money losing" 70 and 76 seat leases. Hey DALPA, we need your help, again! We will give up xx 76 seaters for xx 90 seaters.
Basically we keep giving on Scope - even if we are making billions. I have not looked at the JV aspects of this TA yet but the small jet scope seems concessionary to me.
Scoop
So was our management tremendously shortsighted? Possibly, but maybe they thought this through in the first place. I never understood the excessive length of these leases but now it is beginning to make sense.
Of all the shortcomings of this TA (and there are quite a few) - the Scope issues worry me the most. As a few have already said - I would rather have our current Scope then allow so, so many more 76 seat jets. The 50 seaters are dying a natural, albeit, slow death on their own. I am all for a 50 seat limit but we are giving away too many 76 seaters.
And it gets better. So our management gets out of 50 seat leases by signing excessively long 70 and 76 seat leases. Guess what happens in three years, probably as soon as they hit the new 76 seat limit. They need help to get out of these "money losing" 70 and 76 seat leases. Hey DALPA, we need your help, again! We will give up xx 76 seaters for xx 90 seaters.
Basically we keep giving on Scope - even if we are making billions. I have not looked at the JV aspects of this TA yet but the small jet scope seems concessionary to me.
Scoop
05-23-2012, 09:18 AM
#2
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Plenty of 70-76 seat deals that will still need to be renegotiated during/after the TA's next amendable date....
(IMHO)
Step 1: Get a hard Cap.
Step 2: Shrink that cap. (I.e. sunset clauses)
Step 3: Fly all next-gen powerplants at mainline.
End result: No such thing as DCI.
(IMHO)
Step 1: Get a hard Cap.
Step 2: Shrink that cap. (I.e. sunset clauses)
Step 3: Fly all next-gen powerplants at mainline.
End result: No such thing as DCI.
05-23-2012, 09:19 AM
#3
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Originally Posted by Scoop
Hey DALPA, we need your help, again! We will give up xx 76 seaters for xx 90 seaters.
Scoop
Scoop
05-23-2012, 09:23 AM
#4
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Who is it we're trying to appease with these new 76-seaters? Bombardier? If we're buying ourselves out of poorly planned 50-seater leases with 76-seaters, why not 100-110 seaters? I know some pilots willing to fly them at Delta.
05-23-2012, 09:31 AM
#5
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Posts: 5,414
Originally Posted by Scoop
So the company needs a deal to get out of its multi-year 50 seat leases, some of them lasting until beyond 2020. So why did the company sign leases this long in the first place? Think about it - to get out from under the lease, they have to sign new leases with the same companies for 76 seat lift.
So was our management tremendously shortsighted? Possibly, but maybe they thought this through in the first place. I never understood the excessive length of these leases but now it is beginning to make sense.
Of all the shortcomings of this TA (and there are quite a few) - the Scope issues worry me the most. As a few have already said - I would rather have our current Scope then allow so, so many more 76 seat jets. The 50 seaters are dying a natural, albeit, slow death on their own. I am all for a 50 seat limit but we are giving away too many 76 seaters.
And it gets better. So our management gets out of 50 seat leases by signing excessively long 70 and 76 seat leases. Guess what happens in three years, probably as soon as they hit the new 76 seat limit. They need help to get out of these "money losing" 70 and 76 seat leases. Hey DALPA, we need your help, again! We will give up xx 76 seaters for xx 90 seaters.
Basically we keep giving on Scope - even if we are making billions. I have not looked at the JV aspects of this TA yet but the small jet scope seems concessionary to me.
Scoop
So was our management tremendously shortsighted? Possibly, but maybe they thought this through in the first place. I never understood the excessive length of these leases but now it is beginning to make sense.
Of all the shortcomings of this TA (and there are quite a few) - the Scope issues worry me the most. As a few have already said - I would rather have our current Scope then allow so, so many more 76 seat jets. The 50 seaters are dying a natural, albeit, slow death on their own. I am all for a 50 seat limit but we are giving away too many 76 seaters.
And it gets better. So our management gets out of 50 seat leases by signing excessively long 70 and 76 seat leases. Guess what happens in three years, probably as soon as they hit the new 76 seat limit. They need help to get out of these "money losing" 70 and 76 seat leases. Hey DALPA, we need your help, again! We will give up xx 76 seaters for xx 90 seaters.
Basically we keep giving on Scope - even if we are making billions. I have not looked at the JV aspects of this TA yet but the small jet scope seems concessionary to me.
Scoop
The TA shifts the total block hour ratio of Mainline to DCI 57% in favor of mainline and adds at least 800+ jobs to mainline. The new block hour ratio is contractually protected. Pilots are getting too caught up in the number of large regional aircraft and forgetting that block hours is what truly determines pilot staffing
I would take unlimited outsourcing of any aircraft size limited to 1% of total block hours over 150 aircraft up to 76 seats limited to 50% of total block hours.
Sure if you don't accept the TA management may get the 717s anyway, but Delta will finance the cost of flying the 50 seaters til 2017 or so by dragging out negotiations. By factoring in the time value of money, you guys will never get the money you missed out on back, not.to mention the risk you take that Delta backs out of the 717 deal and let the 50 seater continue to fly those routes
05-23-2012, 09:37 AM
#6
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Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by shiznit
Plenty of 70-76 seat deals that will still need to be renegotiated during/after the TA's next amendable date....
(IMHO)
Step 1: Get a hard Cap.
Step 2: Shrink that cap. (I.e. sunset clauses)
Step 3: Fly all next-gen powerplants at mainline.
End result: No such thing as DCI.
(IMHO)
Step 1: Get a hard Cap.
Step 2: Shrink that cap. (I.e. sunset clauses)
Step 3: Fly all next-gen powerplants at mainline.
End result: No such thing as DCI.
05-23-2012, 09:40 AM
#7
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Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by More Bacon
If DALPA is still bargaining for us, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
05-23-2012, 09:58 AM
#8
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Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
I am interested in how the operation could work with us flying future 76 seaters. Would it be our pilots with ASA's flight attendants and mechanics? Who would do what? What would be an approx cost? Sounds great if logistically it could be done. Can someone give some examples?
05-23-2012, 10:35 AM
#9
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Posts: 2,530
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg
I am interested in how the operation could work with us flying future 76 seaters. Would it be our pilots with ASA's flight attendants and mechanics? Who would do what? What would be an approx cost? Sounds great if logistically it could be done. Can someone give some examples?
05-23-2012, 10:37 AM
#10
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Originally Posted by Trip7
Quick question Scoop, is pilot staffing determined by number of aircraft or by block hours?
The TA shifts the total block hour ratio of Mainline to DCI 57% in favor of mainline and adds at least 800+ jobs to mainline. The new block hour ratio is contractually protected. Pilots are getting too caught up in the number of large regional aircraft and forgetting that block hours is what truly determines pilot staffing
I would take unlimited outsourcing of any aircraft size limited to 1% of total block hours over 150 aircraft up to 76 seats limited to 50% of total block hours.
Sure if you don't accept the TA management may get the 717s anyway, but Delta will finance the cost of flying the 50 seaters til 2017 or so by dragging out negotiations. By factoring in the time value of money, you guys will never get the money you missed out on back, not.to mention the risk you take that Delta backs out of the 717 deal and let the 50 seater continue to fly those routes
The TA shifts the total block hour ratio of Mainline to DCI 57% in favor of mainline and adds at least 800+ jobs to mainline. The new block hour ratio is contractually protected. Pilots are getting too caught up in the number of large regional aircraft and forgetting that block hours is what truly determines pilot staffing
I would take unlimited outsourcing of any aircraft size limited to 1% of total block hours over 150 aircraft up to 76 seats limited to 50% of total block hours.
Sure if you don't accept the TA management may get the 717s anyway, but Delta will finance the cost of flying the 50 seaters til 2017 or so by dragging out negotiations. By factoring in the time value of money, you guys will never get the money you missed out on back, not.to mention the risk you take that Delta backs out of the 717 deal and let the 50 seater continue to fly those routes
Trip,
I believe it is block hours that determine staffing. You bring up some good points, but most guys believe the DCI block hours are decreasing via market forces thus the angst of bargaining for something that is going to happen anyway.
Scoop
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