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From ALPA web board---hold out for more pay?

Old 06-10-2012, 07:07 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by johnso29 View Post
Last night I had an epiphany. The proposed Sec 1 will save our company BILLIONS by letting them escape the RJ heavy mx and their super long contracts.

So why are we going to settle for pathetic pay raises, pathetic increases in vacation day value, pathetic TAFB rigs, pathetic training pay, pathetic vacation policy for reserves(the company physically gets 3 days out of a reserves vacation week and it still wasn't corrected), pathetic less credit values for reserves vs line holders, and whatever else we can add to the list?

They want us to clean up their pathetic RJ debacle, and they can't fix any of that? I say whizz off. Choke on your 50 seaters. Choke on your 70 seaters. Hell, you can even choke on your B717s. If I could vote NO more then once for this slap in the face, I would.
This is basically the opinions of the DTW and MSP reps as well. Even if you can get past the moral shame of allowing 70 more large RJ's and strategic blunder of breathing new life into the dying RJ outsourcing experiment, what you can't get past is how little management gave us for this enormous quid. The cost savings to them is absolutely massive. And for that savings, we literally get pennies on the dollar.

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Old 06-10-2012, 07:09 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Delta1067 View Post
I went from heck yes to heck no in 1 day. Hope more see the light.
Whoa...what?!?

What changed your mind?

Carl
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:43 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Whoa...what?!?

What changed your mind?

Carl
As vehemently as he railed against the NOs, I think what happened is that he was walking along a dirt road and an angel of the Lord appeared to him, putting scles over his eyes. When the scales went away, he saw things clearly...

Kinda the apostle Paul story.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:53 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by DAL73n View Post
Shiz,

How come you and the other Yes voters seem to omit the negatives (concessions) of this TA:

1. We have a higher ALV (+2 hours) that will force approximately 6 extra days (minimum) per year that offsets any increases in vacation.BUT TLV only goes up by 1 hour. ADG, 1:45 more per week of vaca, and :30 per training day will unequivocally more than offset the TLV change. It is a way to hide money for pilots.

2. While any increase is good the increase in per diem (5%) doesn't even match our increases in costs (while we travel - food, etc) over the last 7 years since BK. I wanted more too, they tried for US GOV CONUS/OCONUS but the company would not agree to it.
3. Reserves do get an increase in base pay BUT does not match the extra work they will be doing with ALV + 15, reserve guarantee +2, extra short call. Don't think the company hasn't modeled (remember the reason it takes more than a day to post schedules is because they make more than one run to make sure it is optimized). Rreserves are done at their "reserve guarantee" in the TA (ALV -2:00 when ALV is 74:00-82:00 and ALV -4:00 when ALV is 84:00). Also now reserve pilots have their fly requirement reduced for training, vacation, and other pre-posted events, unlike today's contract, which means that you will be 11:15 OR MORE below the published reserve guarantee 4-6 months out of every year.

Reserves are eligible for ADG, which will help turn the 2-day ATL-SAV 2:30 trip for a reserve into a 9:00 trip (extreme example, but the point is that reserves will have higher credit per day, which will force more reserve pilots to staff for the same block hours of flying)
ALV +15 is a theoretical, almost impossible to happen event with the SOT changes. (Remember you are still done when within ALV -2:00 (-4:00 sometimes)

It sucks a little, but extra short call is ONLY when RES GUAR. is above 75:00. Compared to today, you would get paid 5:00 or more hours for a month with a "chance" to get to 7 SC's. Remember that the SOT made it likely that everyone gets SC's in a more balanced fashion, so unless everyone else in your situation has 6, you won't get a 7th.

4. We are still working for free (and all the money the company has saved with distributed training) by only getting 1 minute of pay for every 2 minutes of running time - can't figure how this one got through in the first place. You will be getting paid on the "duty rig". Not perfect, but a 50% improvement over current book. (1:30 CQ pays :30 min, TA pays :45 multiply it by 4 and you got an extra hour of pay for doing the exact same work.. I call that a pay raise!)

5. 4-8.5-3-3 (I look at it as 12.84/3/3 with a 2% signing bonus)loses 2-2.5% due to lost profit share and 3-4%/year (minimum - I and most others believe "real inflation" is much higher due to the way the government calculates inflation. So now, our 18.5% (19.7% compounded however you want to look at it) is only 3-4% after inflation (Max) which is no real increase in our standard of living.

So getting nothing will help fight that inflation how?


6. While DCI is decreasing a little faster than it would have naturally, we are solving managements problems (our only real leverage - why do you think this deal got done so fast) and letting them exchange OLD 50 seaters (a little early) for brand new 76 seaters (likely with WiFi, IFE, and First class - thereby placating our HVCs) that will be around for 30 years (RA has said he will only buy new A/C with a 30 year life span). There is nothing that guarantees that this will increase main line jobs (SD's recent statements notwithstanding). I believe that this will allow DAL to exercise capacity discipline with DCI and reduce DCI block hours to comply with the new ratios. Nobody can guarantee jobs. The scope is job protection in big way.

7. Everyone seems to be missing that the new A/C will at first replace the DC-9s (the first 21 717s) It has been stated over and over again, but the MD-90's are replacing the DC9 fleet. which means no new pilots through at least 2014.(your opinion, no factual basis) In addition, the 737-900s have already been stated to be replacement A/C for domestic 757s/767s which will then be more lower paying jobs. (and also will replace a whole lot of lower paying 319/320 jobs......)

I'm sure I've missed a few more, just wanted to make sure we get some of the cons out there which DALPA is sure to leave out of all the road shows and NNPs. You've missed a lot is more like it.
I don't omit the negatives, I've merely spent more time looking at the details and how it puts more money in my bank account, more job security in my position, and more time to spend at home, over and above the current agreement.

Is it a perfect deal? No.
The perfect contract has never been signed.
Is this deal good? Yes.

Do I want to gamble on a European meltdown or Israel launching a strike on Iran erasing this offer and subsequently the company's profitability to pay the increases to us? NO!

Do I want to be back at the table $50-60k richer with 19.7% higher rates when we would likely be settling a "first" TA the traditional way? HECK YES!
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:11 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
I remember distinctly that the MD-90s were net negative for the fleet. I'm assuming that is no longer the case?
That was before the recent announcement of 16 additional 90s from JAL. There are 17 MD-90s from China Southern delivered but not yet in service. These will arrive in the active fleet this fall. 16 more MD-90’s from Japan Airlines are to be delivered in 2012 and should enter service in 2013. That is 33 MD-90s yet to join the fleet, with 35 already in service.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:53 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by shiznit View Post
I don't omit the negatives, I've merely spent more time looking at the details and how it puts more money in my bank account, more job security in my position, and more time to spend at home, over and above the current agreement.

Is it a perfect deal? No.
The perfect contract has never been signed.
Is this deal good? Yes.

Do I want to gamble on a European meltdown or Israel launching a strike on Iran erasing this offer and subsequently the company's profitability to pay the increases to us? NO!

Do I want to be back at the table $50-60k richer with 19.7% higher rates when we would likely be settling a "first" TA the traditional way? HECK YES!
+1................
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:56 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Pro Fessional View Post
That was before the recent announcement of 16 additional 90s from JAL. There are 17 MD-90s from China Southern delivered but not yet in service. These will arrive in the active fleet this fall. 16 more MD-90’s from Japan Airlines are to be delivered in 2012 and should enter service in 2013. That is 33 MD-90s yet to join the fleet, with 35 already in service.
Aersale also just purchased the Saudia MD90s. They may not have the same cockpit layout, but maybe they'll have used parts for sale for years. I think Saudia had 29 of them.
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:19 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp View Post
I remember distinctly that the MD-90s were net negative for the fleet. I'm assuming that is no longer the case?
Only in forum land can the replacement of a 35 year old aircraft by younger, higher paying aircraft be considered a "net negative" for the fleet.
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Old 06-11-2012, 05:57 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by johnso29 View Post
Last night I had an epiphany. The proposed Sec 1 will save our company BILLIONS by letting them escape the RJ heavy mx and their super long contracts.

So why are we going to settle for pathetic pay raises, pathetic increases in vacation day value, pathetic TAFB rigs, pathetic training pay, pathetic vacation policy for reserves(the company physically gets 3 days out of a reserves vacation week and it still wasn't corrected), pathetic less credit values for reserves vs line holders, and whatever else we can add to the list?

They want us to clean up their pathetic RJ debacle, and they can't fix any of that? I say whizz off. Choke on your 50 seaters. Choke on your 70 seaters. Hell, you can even choke on your B717s. If I could vote NO more then once for this slap in the face, I would.
Nice rant.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:31 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by slowplay View Post
Only in forum land can the replacement of a 35 year old aircraft by younger, higher paying aircraft be considered a "net negative" for the fleet.
Great for 20 or so DC-9's down from how many at SOC?

Now lets talk about the 739 and how its replacing 50-60 767's and 757's which pay more.
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