Greener Skies Over Seattle
06-10-2012, 09:14 PM
#1
Administrator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
Greener Skies Over Seattle
From Seattle Times:
Shortly after 11 p.m. Monday evening, Alaska Airlines flight 432 from Los Angeles will be the first passenger flight into Seattle-Tacoma International Airport guided down to the runway by signals from a satellite.
Three other flights will follow before midnight, marking the start of a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) test project that could lead to routine use next year of a navigation technology that promises to leave Seattle's skies quieter and greener.
Flying along invisible but precise pathways, jets in the trial will smoothly descend with engines at idle until near the runway, saving fuel and reducing emissions.
The FAA's co-lead on the project, Doug Marek, compares it to sliding down a banister instead of taking the stairs. Planes today are guided in by air traffic controllers in a step-by-step descent that takes more time, and more fuel.
Another change: Jets arriving from the south, if they need to bypass the airport and turn for a landing toward the south, will turn over Elliott Bay instead of over North Seattle residential areas.
The so-called "Greener Skies Over Seattle" flight trials will continue for up to six months, involving some of the passenger flights flown by Alaska Air, Horizon Air, US Airways and SkyWest.
The aircraft-navigation technology was pioneered by Alaska Airlines, which in 2009 used the system on late-night test flights into Sea-Tac — without paying passengers.
The FAA project is part of a massively complicated and expensive revamp of the U.S. air traffic control system — known nationally as NextGen — that must be implemented airport by airport.
The new technologies and procedures have to work alongside the current ground-based aircraft-navigation system. And they must be introduced without a pause, much less a disruption, to the immense flow of daily air traffic in U.S. skies.
JetBlue Chief Executive Dave Barger, in Seattle last month to chair a NextGen federal-advisory-committee meeting, said Seattle will benefit as one of the "first movers" to implement the systems.
praised "the collaboration between the FAA, Boeing, Alaska, the Port of Seattle, working it over the last four years." JetBlue isn't participating in the trial flights, but Barger said he'll be asking how quickly it can join the project.
Elements of NextGen have been implemented separately and piecemeal at various airports around the country.
Phoenix, for example, has the smooth-glide descents in place. Alaska Airlines pilots already fly satellite-guided tracks into smaller airports surrounded by difficult terrain in Alaska.
But because Seattle's air space is complex — and yet not saturated as in, say, New York — it is a perfect proving ground to introduce NextGen procedures on a bigger scale.
David Suomi, the FAA's local deputy regional administrator, said that if airlines here save fuel — and money — with the system, competing carriers will be eager to follow at airports around the country.
"Seattle is uniquely qualified to help bootstrap NextGen going forward," Suomi said.
"A clear, decisive, successful application of NextGen anywhere is going to incentivize airports and airlines to move forward."
After Alaska's successful test flights three years ago, the FAA took over the project in 2010 with a commitment to spend $1.5 million to $2 million to implement it.
So far, the project has devised new satellite-guided procedures only for planes arriving from the western U.S. or western Canada, or from across the Pacific Ocean.
More than 260 air traffic controllers at three regional facilities have been trained.
The FAA's Marek said the purpose of the trial flights is to refine procedures to ensure air traffic controllers can integrate the satellite-guided arrivals seamlessly into the flow of other plane traffic.
For the first week, only late-night arrivals will be involved, with little other air traffic around. In the second week, the trials will begin on the day shift.
With the current system, a controller instructs a pilot to descend in several steps, like going down a giant staircase — say from 12,000 feet to 10,000, then to 6,000. Each time the plane reaches its assigned altitude, the engines power up to hold at that height until the next descent instruction.
With the new system, the step-down disappears.
At a distance of about 40 miles from Sea-Tac, a controller tells the pilot what arrival route he should take. Once the pilot enters that into the flight computer, the autopilot will do the rest, following a continuous and smooth trajectory to the runway.
Because a plane always lands into the wind, jets make their final approach into Sea-Tac sometimes from the north, sometimes from the south.
Planes will save either 14 or 26 miles of flying, depending on their approach route, said Alaska Airlines spokesman Paul McElroy.
He said the turn over Elliott Bay rather than farther north should reduce overflights and jet noise for 750,000 Seattle residents in the northern neighborhoods.
The shorter routes and smooth, optimized descents together should reduce noise, fuel burn and carbon emissions.
Federal law requires completion of a formal environmental assessment of the impact of the changed flight paths on people underneath. That will be done after the flight trials are completed.
Marek said once that's successfully done, the FAA will proclaim the new arrival routes and approaches usable by any airplane with the latest avionics equipment coming into Sea-Tac from the south, west or north.
He said 80 percent of the jets flying into Sea-Tac are equipped to use the new routes, which he expects to open up in the first half of next year.
Sea-Tac airliner tests could yield quieter, more efficient landings | Business & Technology | The Seattle Times
Shortly after 11 p.m. Monday evening, Alaska Airlines flight 432 from Los Angeles will be the first passenger flight into Seattle-Tacoma International Airport guided down to the runway by signals from a satellite.
Three other flights will follow before midnight, marking the start of a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) test project that could lead to routine use next year of a navigation technology that promises to leave Seattle's skies quieter and greener.
Flying along invisible but precise pathways, jets in the trial will smoothly descend with engines at idle until near the runway, saving fuel and reducing emissions.
The FAA's co-lead on the project, Doug Marek, compares it to sliding down a banister instead of taking the stairs. Planes today are guided in by air traffic controllers in a step-by-step descent that takes more time, and more fuel.
Another change: Jets arriving from the south, if they need to bypass the airport and turn for a landing toward the south, will turn over Elliott Bay instead of over North Seattle residential areas.
The so-called "Greener Skies Over Seattle" flight trials will continue for up to six months, involving some of the passenger flights flown by Alaska Air, Horizon Air, US Airways and SkyWest.
The aircraft-navigation technology was pioneered by Alaska Airlines, which in 2009 used the system on late-night test flights into Sea-Tac — without paying passengers.
The FAA project is part of a massively complicated and expensive revamp of the U.S. air traffic control system — known nationally as NextGen — that must be implemented airport by airport.
The new technologies and procedures have to work alongside the current ground-based aircraft-navigation system. And they must be introduced without a pause, much less a disruption, to the immense flow of daily air traffic in U.S. skies.
JetBlue Chief Executive Dave Barger, in Seattle last month to chair a NextGen federal-advisory-committee meeting, said Seattle will benefit as one of the "first movers" to implement the systems.
praised "the collaboration between the FAA, Boeing, Alaska, the Port of Seattle, working it over the last four years." JetBlue isn't participating in the trial flights, but Barger said he'll be asking how quickly it can join the project.
Elements of NextGen have been implemented separately and piecemeal at various airports around the country.
Phoenix, for example, has the smooth-glide descents in place. Alaska Airlines pilots already fly satellite-guided tracks into smaller airports surrounded by difficult terrain in Alaska.
But because Seattle's air space is complex — and yet not saturated as in, say, New York — it is a perfect proving ground to introduce NextGen procedures on a bigger scale.
David Suomi, the FAA's local deputy regional administrator, said that if airlines here save fuel — and money — with the system, competing carriers will be eager to follow at airports around the country.
"Seattle is uniquely qualified to help bootstrap NextGen going forward," Suomi said.
"A clear, decisive, successful application of NextGen anywhere is going to incentivize airports and airlines to move forward."
After Alaska's successful test flights three years ago, the FAA took over the project in 2010 with a commitment to spend $1.5 million to $2 million to implement it.
So far, the project has devised new satellite-guided procedures only for planes arriving from the western U.S. or western Canada, or from across the Pacific Ocean.
More than 260 air traffic controllers at three regional facilities have been trained.
The FAA's Marek said the purpose of the trial flights is to refine procedures to ensure air traffic controllers can integrate the satellite-guided arrivals seamlessly into the flow of other plane traffic.
For the first week, only late-night arrivals will be involved, with little other air traffic around. In the second week, the trials will begin on the day shift.
With the current system, a controller instructs a pilot to descend in several steps, like going down a giant staircase — say from 12,000 feet to 10,000, then to 6,000. Each time the plane reaches its assigned altitude, the engines power up to hold at that height until the next descent instruction.
With the new system, the step-down disappears.
At a distance of about 40 miles from Sea-Tac, a controller tells the pilot what arrival route he should take. Once the pilot enters that into the flight computer, the autopilot will do the rest, following a continuous and smooth trajectory to the runway.
Because a plane always lands into the wind, jets make their final approach into Sea-Tac sometimes from the north, sometimes from the south.
Planes will save either 14 or 26 miles of flying, depending on their approach route, said Alaska Airlines spokesman Paul McElroy.
He said the turn over Elliott Bay rather than farther north should reduce overflights and jet noise for 750,000 Seattle residents in the northern neighborhoods.
The shorter routes and smooth, optimized descents together should reduce noise, fuel burn and carbon emissions.
Federal law requires completion of a formal environmental assessment of the impact of the changed flight paths on people underneath. That will be done after the flight trials are completed.
Marek said once that's successfully done, the FAA will proclaim the new arrival routes and approaches usable by any airplane with the latest avionics equipment coming into Sea-Tac from the south, west or north.
He said 80 percent of the jets flying into Sea-Tac are equipped to use the new routes, which he expects to open up in the first half of next year.
Sea-Tac airliner tests could yield quieter, more efficient landings | Business & Technology | The Seattle Times
06-11-2012, 08:15 AM
#4
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by HercDriver130
noise....airplanes don't make noise....they make beautiful music... 
Except for maybe the 4:30 am cargo beast that rocks the house to its core. Actually, I don't think I could get used to living anywhere else. Besides, I don't know what the visiting friends and relatives would do without our fabulous airport pickup/dropoff service.
06-11-2012, 03:03 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
I think it's a great idea. Can't say I'm thrilled that it will have the same wake seperation minimums that we have today. Crossing the same precise point that a heavy just went over clean and slow isn't a great idea. Been slammed sideways when 20 in trail of a 747 descending out of cruise before.
06-11-2012, 06:03 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 443
So are they talking about STARs, IAPs, or RNAV visuals (like the new ones in ATL)?
They talk about the multiple stepdowns currently given by controllers but that seems to be more of a problem of controllers over controlling. I've been on right downwind over Vashon at 10,000' and given a decent to 7 then 6 then 5 then 4 then 3 right turn 070 over Lynwood then approach clearance. I've also been given 3000 immediately and given the turn over the bay at about 5500 which gives you a flight idle decent (with drag) to inside Boeing field when you start configuring. They also mention PHX as one of the airports that has constant decent arrivals but in my experience at least on the Geela arrival you waste a lot of fuel because you are so low so far away from the airport. That arrival is also far from a constant descent. With all the altitude and speed changes it is a jerky ride with or without coupled VNAV. The Riivr and Seavu in LA work much better if you know how to program the box. It would be better just flying downwind at 10 or 11 and being in a constant decent instead of being down at 7000 before even getting abeam the airport and driving in the chop for 20+ miles on downwind.
Not to mention that heavier aircraft will be able to stay higher longer since they come down at a higher verical speed. Just the other day, we were clean and descending at minimum clean maneuvering speed with the boards out and were only doing 1000 FPM.
They talk about the multiple stepdowns currently given by controllers but that seems to be more of a problem of controllers over controlling. I've been on right downwind over Vashon at 10,000' and given a decent to 7 then 6 then 5 then 4 then 3 right turn 070 over Lynwood then approach clearance. I've also been given 3000 immediately and given the turn over the bay at about 5500 which gives you a flight idle decent (with drag) to inside Boeing field when you start configuring. They also mention PHX as one of the airports that has constant decent arrivals but in my experience at least on the Geela arrival you waste a lot of fuel because you are so low so far away from the airport. That arrival is also far from a constant descent. With all the altitude and speed changes it is a jerky ride with or without coupled VNAV. The Riivr and Seavu in LA work much better if you know how to program the box. It would be better just flying downwind at 10 or 11 and being in a constant decent instead of being down at 7000 before even getting abeam the airport and driving in the chop for 20+ miles on downwind.
Can't say I'm thrilled that it will have the same wake seperation minimums that we have today. Crossing the same precise point that a heavy just went over clean and slow isn't a great idea. Been slammed sideways when 20 in trail of a 747 descending out of cruise before.
06-11-2012, 06:12 PM
#7
At your mom's house
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: cpt 737
Posts: 2,656
I guess it's all for naught if the pilots don't play along and use VNAV. So many guys don't trust that thing. Garbage in, garbage out is what I say.
Last edited by vagabond; 06-11-2012 at 06:13 PM. Reason: typos, grammar, punctuation :)
06-11-2012, 07:00 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,982
Originally Posted by shfo
They also mention PHX as one of the airports that has constant decent arrivals but in my experience at least on the Geela arrival you waste a lot of fuel because you are so low so far away from the airport. That arrival is also far from a constant descent.
06-12-2012, 09:22 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 737 f/o
Posts: 299
Flew the MARNR arrival early this AM. It is a STARR not a visual RNAV. It starts over Victoria then has a more angled approach (from the north) instead of a 90 degree turn to base from ALKIA. It worked pretty well, were at idle from YYJ to 1000' but a couple of the steps were a little steep and couldn't hold the airspeed so had to use the SB a little, that was with a crosswind.
I think PHX is about one of the worst actually. On the MAIER from the north, you're about 10,000 to low the entire time. Just because it has the MOST stepdowns doesn't mean it has the best.
I think PHX is about one of the worst actually. On the MAIER from the north, you're about 10,000 to low the entire time. Just because it has the MOST stepdowns doesn't mean it has the best.
06-14-2012, 08:25 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: B737, CA
Posts: 176
Our RNP arrivals and departures work great when ATC lets us do them without "controlling". In Southeast Alaska or the Arctic it is common to be cleared for the approach while in cruise. That is when this technology shines, assuming that you gave the box some descent winds, ISA dev, and Alt.
I think it is a long long ways away from working in SEA. ATC just isn't capable of doing it in a high traffic area.
As to our pilots not playing along in VNAV. That won't be a problem. It is sad to say, but I have not flown with an FO hired after about 2007 that could plan his/her own descent. They do not know how to fly the jet in anything but VNAV. They have never been taught how to do a 3 to 1. Every descent is done in VNAV and boards out, or VNAV and power up.
I think it is a long long ways away from working in SEA. ATC just isn't capable of doing it in a high traffic area.
As to our pilots not playing along in VNAV. That won't be a problem. It is sad to say, but I have not flown with an FO hired after about 2007 that could plan his/her own descent. They do not know how to fly the jet in anything but VNAV. They have never been taught how to do a 3 to 1. Every descent is done in VNAV and boards out, or VNAV and power up.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
vagabond
Hangar Talk
0
02-20-2007 02:16 PM
