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Virgin America a hit, but losing money
[QUOTE]
Rewind to Aug 8, 2007: Virgin America's two maiden flights - one arriving from New York, the other from Los Angeles - land simultaneously on adjoining runways at San Francisco International Airport before a crowd of Bay Area dignitaries, a scrum of journalists and a squadron of teenage cheerleaders in scarlet uniforms. "Virgin! Virgin!" they cheer as passengers file into the terminal. "Branson! Branson!" they shout as Virgin America's high-profile minority-owner - the shaggy-haired British billionaire Richard Branson - gives a two-handed wave. Branson grins broadly, surveying the crowd at SFO, which the startup, low-cost carrier has chosen as its hub airport. Fast-forward to Aug. 8, 2012: Virgin America marks five years of flying. Award-winning, money-losing Virgin America is a hit with travelers, especially the high-flying Silicon Valley executives and multitasking digital media addicts courted by the Burlingame carrier. With 2,600 employees, about half of them in the Bay Area, Virgin America operates 93 flights a day on 52 aircraft (average age: a young 3.3 years) to 15 cities around the country and three destinations in Mexico. Last year, the airline flew 5 million passengers; it expects to board 6.6 million this year. Branson's London company Virgin Group Ltd. owns 49 percent of the stock and has a 25 percent voting stake, the maximum allowed for foreign nationals under U.S. law. American investors own 51 percent of Virgin America, which licenses the Virgin brand. "I've always had the dream of helping create a really good, quality airline in the U.S.," Branson said in an e-mail. "America has the best of everything, but for whatever reasons the airline industry there has forgotten entirely about the guest. Virgin America launched with the guest in mind. No matter where I go in the world, people tell me they love Virgin America. That is pretty amazing to hear when you are in, say, Malaysia." Wow factor Indeed, the carrier has a wow factor. Boarding a Virgin America flight, bathed in 12 alternating shades of mood lighting and awash in globalized dance/trance music, is not unlike rolling into a late-night club, cocktail in hand. Unlike low-cost carriers that fly with single-class seats and service, Virgin America offers first class, premium economy and economy. Virgin America's stylish aircraft interior design, avid embrace of in-flight technology and young, energetic staff account for much of its popularity. So do its fares. Tom Parsons, chief executive officer of BestFares.com, said Virgin America often offers the most attractive fares in the country, especially on transcontinental flights. "They are probably the most consistent airline out there giving deals day-in, day-out." For all the buzz, though, there is one thing Virgin America hasn't done: Make money. Losses over 5 years Buffeted by the recession, high fuel costs and the expense of expanding its route network, it has recorded but one profitable quarter since the airline went wheels-up. In the first quarter of this year the company reported a loss of $49 million on revenue of $267 million. Since 2007, Virgin America has recorded a net loss of $671.3 million and an operating loss of $447.3 million. If Virgin America can bring its financials in line with its high marks for style and service, it will have a much smoother flight path. "Virgin pays attention to design, product and service details," said Henry Harteveldt, a San Francisco analyst for Atmosphere Research Group. "Virgin is the most experiential of U.S. airlines." Long before it sold its first ticket, Virgin America made an impact at SFO. In May 2007, three months before Virgin America's first flights, JetBlue Airways flew to SFO for the first time. JetBlue's founder and then-CEO, David Neeleman, told The Chronicle that Virgin America's imminent arrival was one reason JetBlue entered a market it had previously ignored. "It's going to be a party," he said. Read more: Virgin America a hit, but losing money - SFGate |
If airlines fell under the regulation of the FTC instead of the DOJ, I am pretty sure they would be a candidate for predatory pricing.
Virgin America was created, according to quotes from Branson himself, to kill off United, or alternatively Delta. Since it appears Branson now desires to partner with Delta both over both oceans and United is going no where ... what's the point of Virgin? Wasn't there some news a while back that US investors were insulated from losses? |
Is Delta's ex. President, Fred Reid, still running VA?
Fred was the one who put out the pamphlet on how Business Men prefer hourly service, from every where to anywhere and RJ's were going to take over the world. We called him 'RJ Fred'. He and Leo the CEO bought hundreds of them for Com Air and ASA, to replace 50% of our domestic flying, while laying off 1,400 Delta pilots. http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/s...8/daily57.html |
FlexJet now ...
Since becoming President of Flexjet in 2008, Reid has successfully transformed the company into the industry’s only private aviation solutions provider to offer comprehensive access to a full portfolio of products, ranging from whole aircraft management and fractional jet ownership to jet cards and charter brokerage services. Reid was also the driving force behind Flexjet’s alliance with Korean Air, marking the first arrangement of its kind between a North American fractional jet company and an international airline. In another industry first, Reid initiated the creation of Flexjet’s innovative Customer Account Management (CAM) program, consolidating all client-facing departments to provide owners with a single point person to streamline requests. Prior to joining Flexjet, Reid’s executive management background includes experience at four of the world’s major airlines, most recently as the founding Chief Executive Officer of Virgin America. He joined Virgin in 2004 and shaped America’s “next generation airline” from the ground up. While serving as President of Delta Airlines, Reid led the creation of the airline’s low-fare “Song”- branded airline and headed Delta Connection, the world’s largest fleet of regional jets. He also built SkyTeam, regarded as the most integrated global airline alliance, and directed the successful acquisition of regional carriers ASA and Comair by Delta. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1240271)
Wasn't there some news a while back that US investors were insulated from losses?
They've lost what, half a billion in 5 years and are less than 10% the size of most legacies, are always down to their last 20 or so mil while losing way more than that, yet are still around. He's an egomaniac blowing through his beer money until he finally breaks through or gives up. |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 1240297)
He gives them guaranteed double digit annual returns backed by his foreign money, then calls that "US money" since it technically came from US investors. When that isn't enough, he buys tons of tickets he never intends on using with his personal accounts to funnel them revene under the guise of "just another citizen of the world" purchasing goods and services.
They've lost what, half a billion in 5 years and are less than 10% the size of most legacies, are always down to their last 20 or so mil while losing way more than that, yet are still around. He's an egomaniac blowing through his beer money until he finally breaks through or gives up. Why would VA lose so much money if Branson were buying all the tickets? That might be possible if the tickets were cheaper than other airlines (they aren't), or if he were buying, say, half the seats and the planes were flying empty (our average load factor is around 80%). So really, you are full of BS. Look, I work there, and myself and all the rest of us know that things don't look good. But let's try to stick to reality and leave fantasy to folks like Tolkein. OK? |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1240277)
Is Delta's ex. President, Fred Reid, still running VA?
Fred was the one who put out the pamphlet on how Business Men prefer hourly service, from every where to anywhere and RJ's were going to take over the world. We called him 'RJ Fred'. He and Leo the CEO bought hundreds of them for Com Air and ASA, to replace 50% of our domestic flying, while laying off 1,400 Delta pilots. Passed over for CEO, Delta president quits - Pacific Business News |
Originally Posted by Fred Flintstone
(Post 1240343)
Fred Greed was out by the end of 2007. Try to keep up Timbo.
Why would I 'try to keep up' with VA? I can barely keep up with my OWN company! :D Shall I now quiz you on all the VP's, and their dates of arrival/departure, for the past 5 years, at DL? :eek: Fred was all about Fred, and outsourced as much flying as he could, just go back and reread that last paragraph. He bought hundreds of RJ's to fly the domestic stuff, and inked International Code Shares for the International stuff. Our pilot group went from 10,400 on 9/11/2001, down to about 7,300 just prior to our merger with NW. " While serving as President of Delta Airlines, Reid led the creation of the airline’s low-fare “Song”- branded airline and headed Delta Connection, the world’s largest fleet of regional jets. He also built SkyTeam, regarded as the most integrated global airline alliance, and directed the successful acquisition of regional carriers ASA and Comair by Delta. " Leo Mullin was another piece of work, he came to DL from McKinzie and Company, a consulting firm who's mantra is; "Outsoruce everything to the lowest bidder". https://alumni.mckinsey.com/alumni/d...ws/News614.jsp |
I'm going to start my own airline.
|
Originally Posted by jayme
(Post 1240326)
gloopy,
Why would VA lose so much money if Branson were buying all the tickets? That might be possible if the tickets were cheaper than other airlines (they aren't), or if he were buying, say, half the seats and the planes were flying empty (our average load factor is around 80%). So really, you are full of BS. Look, I work there, and myself and all the rest of us know that things don't look good. But let's try to stick to reality and leave fantasy to folks like Tolkein. OK? |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 1240445)
Its a matter of degree. He isn't doing it on every seat every flight, or even half the seats on every flight. But he's doing it as a way to "legally" launder his dirty foreign money into his "American" company. 5 seats here, 10 seats there, and not on every flight but at the end of the year it really adds up. But the majority of his dirty foreign money is coming from hand picked "US investors" with "US money" locking in double digit bonded non defaultable returns backed by his 100% foreign money. And Gandalf didn't tell me that. A very high level VP (or higher) at a major US airline did. They are on to him but the DOJ is under massive pressure to look the other way as long as he has a thread of pseudo-legality to point to and as long as he keeps the amounts in question below a certain point of public outcry.
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Originally Posted by Bocaflyer
(Post 1240448)
Wow. The DOJ is scared of a rich money launderer now? Aren't they all rich?? Jesus man, listen to yourself. Lose the hate and conspiracy theory, the British are NOT coming after all. We won the war. Reeelax! :)
I'm sure you like your company and if it makes it you will be an uber genius for having gone there, seniority jumping the entire industry by 20 or 30 years compared to just about anywhere else. That's the lure of a start up, and why the kool aid flows so deeply within them. |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 1240451)
Not scared of him, but there is massive political pressure from many angles. Regulators and lawmakers will let things slide as long as someone is a glorious "LCC" because regardless of their stance on labor, they ALWAYS benefit more constituents by promoting cheap labor (number of pax) than protecting the few within labor (number of airline employees). There is also massive foreign pressure from our "ally" that we have a "special relationship" with to let VX stay around and grow to critical mass. In addition to that, even though VX is diverting capacity from higher paying jobs to lower (yes I know, you upgrade in 15 minutes which is a "raise") its still jobs in a tough economy in an extremely influential state and concentrated in an extremely influential district of a senior congress critter. There is a ton of political pressure to look the other way and let VX keep growing.
I'm sure you like your company and if it makes it you will be an uber genius for having gone there, seniority jumping the entire industry by 20 or 30 years compared to just about anywhere else. That's the lure of a start up, and why the kool aid flows so deeply within them. Save the insults in our general direction, just because I don't believe your boogie man stories. I know for a FACT that 99% of your post is incorrect. I have better sources than a friend of a friend of a VP said. Lol. Have a good day man, it's Sunday go spend time with the family! Every now and then my wife bans me (mercifully) from APC and FI, and I spend about 3 happy years in exile. I'm starting to remember why. |
Originally Posted by Bocaflyer
(Post 1240448)
Lose the hate and conspiracy theory, the British are NOT coming after all. We won the war. Reeelax! :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30580063@N02/3384518990/ Imagine if a JAL plane jokingly referred to Pearl Harbor on one of their planes. Stay classy Branson. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1240277)
Is Delta's ex. President, Fred Reid, still running VA?
Fred was the one who put out the pamphlet on how Business Men prefer hourly service, from every where to anywhere and RJ's were going to take over the world. We called him 'RJ Fred'. He and Leo the CEO bought hundreds of them for Com Air and ASA, to replace 50% of our domestic flying, while laying off 1,400 Delta pilots. Passed over for CEO, Delta president quits - Pacific Business News C'mon Tim, Fred has always been very impressed with Fred - just ask him. He is a total clown. Went to LAX after 9-11 to hear him address the base employees on DALs plight - he basically said all DAL employees are lucky we have Leo and him to run the company. He should have said "...run the company into the ground going bonkers on a 50 seat RJ binge." Scoop |
It would not surprise me at all if Fred were somehow involved with Delta Air Elite, through Flex Jet. I'm just glad we have yet another outsouced flying division, for our most special 'High Value Customers', so they don't have to fly on Mainline.
Go Fred Go! Really, please, just go... |
Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 1240506)
C'mon Tim,
Fred has always been very impressed with Fred - just ask him. He is a total clown. Went to LAX after 9-11 to hear him address the base employees on DALs plight - he basically said all DAL employees are lucky we have Leo and him to run the company. He should have said "...run the company into the ground going bonkers on a 50 seat RJ binge." Scoop |
Honestly, what do you think the odds of VX being around in 2022 are?
|
Originally Posted by Bocaflyer
(Post 1240453)
Some updates for you. Upgrades take 3-4 years at present; if you want to sit reserve or not. Most pilots here came from 20-30 years of failed carriers just like myself. Plenty of time and experience in the wrong jobs. We didn't come here to drink kool aid, we came here to get off of unemployment and feed our families. And like the legacies and else where, we have a large share of Regional captains that came here, because god forbid they were tired of Mesa and the likes.
Save the insults in our general direction, just because I don't believe your boogie man stories. I know for a FACT that 99% of your post is incorrect. I have better sources than a friend of a friend of a VP said. Lol. Have a good day man, it's Sunday go spend time with the family! Every now and then my wife bans me (mercifully) from APC and FI, and I spend about 3 happy years in exile. I'm starting to remember why. If you are as experienced (and old) as you say, then you are a relatively short timer and I do understand you running the numbers on things and realizing that VX is likely the final stop for you. For others they are playing the "I'll be in the top 500 of a mega major one day" but whatever. Its all part of the very same labor busting longevity shredding churn the industry is made of. The cycle will always continue. Start up a new airline, pay everyone first year everything on a drastically reduced pay and benefits package, get new airplanes leapfrogging in technology and ammenities, wash, rinse, file bankruptcy because now your costs are higher and here comes another start up and repeat. I get it, I just don't like it. Don't h8 the playa though, its the game. Rich people will never, ever, get tired of playing with airplanes, and pilots will never not take the best deal they can get at any given time. Some cling to a fantasy that mass refusal to work by all pilots will make the labor corporate churn go away but that's the ultimate pipe dream. That will never happen nor should it even be a goal. Pure fantasy. But the many, many hundreds of aircraft on the order books for so called LCC's and present and future start ups while other airlines stagnate, shrink and fade away make this very much a zero sum game. If VX succeeds to the extent it strives to, the same amount of jobs will be lost at other carriers to provide lower paying and much more junior jobs there. That's just how it works. I guess in that regard we're like these guys: http://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuplo...cc4da5cb68.jpg We're both trying to run the other out of a job, and to deny that is either a flat out lie or a hyper-idealized delusion. There is not room for all the present ULCC's, much less future ones, and the existing legacy airlines. Something has to give. "Just feeding my family" will be the ink the winners write the outcome of history in. |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 1240744)
Not friend of a friend, but directly from the (higher than a) VP in question. You can't possibly pretend you blew through half a billion dollars in a few years with just a few airplanes and have perpetually been down to your last 20 million or so every quarter while losing more than that almost every quarter anything other than "royal" intervention.
If you are as experienced (and old) as you say, then you are a relatively short timer and I do understand you running the numbers on things and realizing that VX is likely the final stop for you. For others they are playing the "I'll be in the top 500 of a mega major one day" but whatever. Its all part of the very same labor busting longevity shredding churn the industry is made of. The cycle will always continue. Start up a new airline, pay everyone first year everything on a drastically reduced pay and benefits package, get new airplanes leapfrogging in technology and ammenities, wash, rinse, file bankruptcy because now your costs are higher and here comes another start up and repeat. I get it, I just don't like it. Don't h8 the playa though, its the game. Rich people will never, ever, get tired of playing with airplanes, and pilots will never not take the best deal they can get at any given time. Some cling to a fantasy that mass refusal to work by all pilots will make the labor corporate churn go away but that's the ultimate pipe dream. That will never happen nor should it even be a goal. Pure fantasy. But the many, many hundreds of aircraft on the order books for so called LCC's and present and future start ups while other airlines stagnate, shrink and fade away make this very much a zero sum game. If VX succeeds to the extent it strives to, the same amount of jobs will be lost at other carriers to provide lower paying and much more junior jobs there. That's just how it works. I guess in that regard we're like these guys: http://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuplo...cc4da5cb68.jpg We're both trying to run the other out of a job, and to deny that is either a flat out lie or a hyper-idealized delusion. There is not room for all the present ULCC's, much less future ones, and the existing legacy airlines. Something has to give. "Just feeding my family" will be the ink the winners write the outcome of history in. |
Originally Posted by Dashdog
(Post 1240901)
This is the best summary of our industry I've seen in awhile. When people ask me what I think of VX, JB, Spirit, ect., I never quite know how to answer, but from now on I'm just going to paste this on my phone, and show it to them. I don't hold any grudges against my fellow pilots for taking these jobs, but I do resent the system that creates them, and keeps our compensation and work rules so poor. I have a friend who is younger and works for JB. He makes more than I do (I work for a legacy carrier- it doesn't matter which). It's hard for him to understand that one of the reasons my pay is so low, is because of the success of his company- which got successful for the reasons stated above by gloopy. I don't hold it against him, and I don't want to see his pay go down, but some day (possibly soon), he will be in my shoes watching some other ULCC start-up undercutting his company and putting downward pressure on his pay. Hopefully he'll be able to understand better then and maybe work towards a real solution. Going by history (and all the ridiculous arguments on this forum), I don't think the chances are too good.
I work for a self described ULCC. Prior to this my background was military so my perspective is neccessarily narrow. Even so, I don't see how my carrier is responsible for pilot woes at the legacies. Consider these points: It was the legacy carriers with the blessing of their respective pilot unions that created B scales and fostered the growth of regional airlines. Neither of those two descisions had anything to do my carriers existance. They did have much to do with wrecking T&C of pilots The fallout from 9/11 gave airline management a cover to gut labor contracts in a way they probably could not have done before. It's not entirely a zero sum game. As with Ryan in europe, our market is customers who normally would not have flown at all, or rarely. One of ALPAs mantras is that pilot costs have nothing to do with the success or failure of an airline. Complaining about pilot wages at a LCC is therefore a straw man argument. Before you complain about low wages and poor work rules at an LCC, however, you might want to do a little homework. Ive been with my carrier 13 years and my T&C are quite attractive and probably better than yours. I'm not looking for a fight. Lots of smart folks with more time and skin in this game than I have. From where I sit I just don't see LCCs being responsible for whats wrong with this industry. JMAO |
The downside to a Free Market Economy is "the churn..." Kind of like Kmart (or other similar retailers of the day) not figuring out how to deal with Walmart.
What is the solution? No more entrepreneurship? S |
Reregulation of the industry is the only way it will stop.
Don't hold your breath waiting for that though! Too many Congressmen and Senators want to fly with their girlfriends to their condos in Palm Beach, for $49. |
Originally Posted by tzskipper
(Post 1241019)
The downside to a Free Market Economy is "the churn..." Kind of like Kmart (or other similar retailers of the day) not figuring out how to deal with Walmart.
What is the solution? No more entrepreneurship? S The problem is how the crony (non) capitalist system is set up. The government is supposed to vett all start ups for viability, yet the government blindly rubber stamps all of them while over 95% of them fail. But they are rubber stamped so the politicos can provide low fares to the masses, labor and industry stability be dammed. On the other side of the equation, when a carrier should by all rights go away, they are bailed out while at the same time taking massive cuts that end up dragging everyone else down. Look at USAir 10 years ago. Had they liquidated, the other airlines wouldn't have furloughed many if at all and wouldn't have had nearly the leverage against labor so the cuts taken would have drastically less. Add in no VX, no SkyBus, no IndyAir and no JetBlue, and the remaining airlines would have been hiring like crazy and been more than able to fend off AirTran and Southwest, the latter of which wasn't nearly as much of a problem but they all still grew as fast as possible replacing legacy jobs with their super junior jobs. Fast forward to today and USAir captains make less than many FO's so they didn't benefit in the long run either, but management sure did. Now we are agressively subsidizing foreign airlines to the tune of 5 million per plane per year and celebrating their discriminatory employment practices that would get any US company SWAT raided by machine gunners and shut down over night. We need to stop allowing start ups at anywhere near the threshold we do. That doesn't require new laws but upholding ones we already have. The DOT should never rubber stamp all these idiotic experiments. Standing by for People's Express and SkyBus II and others in the coming years as well as the endless expansion of existing ponzh scheme ULCCs that have to live in growth mode. Then there's the foreign EGO airlines that we subsidize while at the same time subsidizing their nations by borrowing from them to defend them which devalues our currency so we have to keep sending them even more of our wealth to do so. We need to end those subsidies and allow failing companies to fail. The amount of churn caused by the free market would be significantly less than the churn created by redundant layers of failed policy and misguided politics. |
Originally Posted by Merlyn
(Post 1241010)
Trying to understand how our industry got this way is kind of like the 4 blind men trying to describe an elephant each holding on to a different part. One has an ear, one a leg, the trunk, the tail.
I work for a self described ULCC. Prior to this my background was military so my perspective is neccessarily narrow. Even so, I don't see how my carrier is responsible for pilot woes at the legacies. Consider these points: It was the legacy carriers with the blessing of their respective pilot unions that created B scales and fostered the growth of regional airlines. Neither of those two descisions had anything to do my carriers existance. They did have much to do with wrecking T&C of pilots The fallout from 9/11 gave airline management a cover to gut labor contracts in a way they probably could not have done before. It's not entirely a zero sum game. As with Ryan in europe, our market is customers who normally would not have flown at all, or rarely. One of ALPAs mantras is that pilot costs have nothing to do with the success or failure of an airline. Complaining about pilot wages at a LCC is therefore a straw man argument. Before you complain about low wages and poor work rules at an LCC, however, you might want to do a little homework. Ive been with my carrier 13 years and my T&C are quite attractive and probably better than yours. I'm not looking for a fight. Lots of smart folks with more time and skin in this game than I have. From where I sit I just don't see LCCs being responsible for whats wrong with this industry. JMAO |
Hey non-DL guys,
Save yourself some keystrokes. If you are not DL, you are inferior. gloopy refers to AS as a regional that's taking DL flying (among other gems). AS, as we all know- correction- as most of us know, is a well-respected legacy. There are many @ DL that still look down @ WN and Fedex because those guys were the DL rejects at some time in the past (their words, not mine). I have heard these sentiments while jumpseating on DL. That was before NK had their new contract- I can only imagine what they were saying about NK then. I have had the pleasure of riding on Virgin America. IMO, hands down, the best, most consistent economy product in the US right now. Virgin guys/gals don't need to defend themselves and I really wish you would not try to. Why do you care what some keyboard commandos feel about you? You haven's scabbed and you're not an alter-ego company. Let them blow all the hot air that they want to. I wish you well and I hope that your company succeeds. Spirit guys also should not try to explain themselves. Your business model has proven itself as demonstrated by your profitability and growth. NK was the best QOL I have ever had. The product is not something that I’d pay for, but there are millions of people that choose to. Again, you're not scabs, not an alter-ego and you don't OUTSOURCE A-N-Y of your flying. Let the DL experts rationalize why they do. It seems some on here truly believe that if everyone else just packed up and left then their company would do well, they would get the contract that they had 10-12 years ago and that they’d rule the world. It could happen, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I guess my request is, try your best to not engage them. They troll the boards and interject their unwanted opinions on almost every thread now and it has negatively affected the level of discourse on this site. I don’t have anyone on my ignore list, I just kinda read and mentally discard much of the drivel. Give it a try, it may help you as well. |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 1241071)
I'm not against entrepreneurship, nor do I favor reregultion (although we're pretty well "regulated" as it is).
The problem is how the crony (non) capitalist system is set up. The government is supposed to vett all start ups for viability, yet the government blindly rubber stamps all of them while over 95% of them fail. But they are rubber stamped so the politicos can provide low fares to the masses, labor and industry stability be dammed. On the other side of the equation, when a carrier should by all rights go away, they are bailed out while at the same time taking massive cuts that end up dragging everyone else down. Look at USAir 10 years ago. Had they liquidated, the other airlines wouldn't have furloughed many if at all and wouldn't have had nearly the leverage against labor so the cuts taken would have drastically less. Add in no VX, no SkyBus, no IndyAir and no JetBlue, and the remaining airlines would have been hiring like crazy and been more than able to fend off AirTran and Southwest, the latter of which wasn't nearly as much of a problem but they all still grew as fast as possible replacing legacy jobs with their super junior jobs. Fast forward to today and USAir captains make less than many FO's so they didn't benefit in the long run either, but management sure did. Now we are agressively subsidizing foreign airlines to the tune of 5 million per plane per year and celebrating their discriminatory employment practices that would get any US company SWAT raided by machine gunners and shut down over night. We need to stop allowing start ups at anywhere near the threshold we do. That doesn't require new laws but upholding ones we already have. The DOT should never rubber stamp all these idiotic experiments. Standing by for People's Express and SkyBus II and others in the coming years as well as the endless expansion of existing ponzh scheme ULCCs that have to live in growth mode. Then there's the foreign EGO airlines that we subsidize while at the same time subsidizing their nations by borrowing from them to defend them which devalues our currency so we have to keep sending them even more of our wealth to do so. We need to end those subsidies and allow failing companies to fail. The amount of churn caused by the free market would be significantly less than the churn created by redundant layers of failed policy and misguided politics. s |
Originally Posted by dundem
(Post 1241103)
Hey non-DL guys,
Save yourself some keystrokes. If you are not DL, you are inferior. gloopy refers to AS as a regional that's taking DL flying (among other gems). AS, as we all know- correction- as most of us know, is a well-respected legacy. There are many @ DL that still look down @ WN and Fedex because those guys were the DL rejects at some time in the past (their words, not mine). I have heard these sentiments while jumpseating on DL. That was before NK had their new contract- I can only imagine what they were saying about NK then. I have had the pleasure of riding on Virgin America. IMO, hands down, the best, most consistent economy product in the US right now. Virgin guys/gals don't need to defend themselves and I really wish you would not try to. Why do you care what some keyboard commandos feel about you? You haven's scabbed and you're not an alter-ego company. Let them blow all the hot air that they want to. I wish you well and I hope that your company succeeds. Spirit guys also should not try to explain themselves. Your business model has proven itself as demonstrated by your profitability and growth. NK was the best QOL I have ever had. The product is not something that I’d pay for, but there are millions of people that choose to. Again, you're not scabs, not an alter-ego and you don't OUTSOURCE A-N-Y of your flying. Let the DL experts rationalize why they do. It seems some on here truly believe that if everyone else just packed up and left then their company would do well, they would get the contract that they had 10-12 years ago and that they’d rule the world. It could happen, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I guess my request is, try your best to not engage them. They troll the boards and interject their unwanted opinions on almost every thread now and it has negatively affected the level of discourse on this site. I don’t have anyone on my ignore list, I just kinda read and mentally discard much of the drivel. Give it a try, it may help you as well. |
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/24536352.jpg
Originally Posted by dundem
(Post 1241103)
Hey non-DL guys,
Save yourself some keystrokes. If you are not DL, you are inferior. gloopy refers to AS as a regional that's taking DL flying (among other gems). AS, as we all know- correction- as most of us know, is a well-respected legacy. There are many @ DL that still look down @ WN and Fedex because those guys were the DL rejects at some time in the past (their words, not mine). I have heard these sentiments while jumpseating on DL. That was before NK had their new contract- I can only imagine what they were saying about NK then. I have had the pleasure of riding on Virgin America. IMO, hands down, the best, most consistent economy product in the US right now. Virgin guys/gals don't need to defend themselves and I really wish you would not try to. Why do you care what some keyboard commandos feel about you? You haven's scabbed and you're not an alter-ego company. Let them blow all the hot air that they want to. I wish you well and I hope that your company succeeds. Spirit guys also should not try to explain themselves. Your business model has proven itself as demonstrated by your profitability and growth. NK was the best QOL I have ever had. The product is not something that I’d pay for, but there are millions of people that choose to. Again, you're not scabs, not an alter-ego and you don't OUTSOURCE A-N-Y of your flying. Let the DL experts rationalize why they do. It seems some on here truly believe that if everyone else just packed up and left then their company would do well, they would get the contract that they had 10-12 years ago and that they’d rule the world. It could happen, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I guess my request is, try your best to not engage them. They troll the boards and interject their unwanted opinions on almost every thread now and it has negatively affected the level of discourse on this site. I don’t have anyone on my ignore list, I just kinda read and mentally discard much of the drivel. Give it a try, it may help you as well. |
I'm sure Virgin US does have the best service. In fact, their results might be better if they just mailed every customer a crisp $100 bill and said "thanks for flying United." It isn't hard to be popular when your charging nothing for an expensive product.
Making a profit is an entirely different thing. What Virgin was set up to do, failed. Virgin was unable to drive United out of operation. Eating United is a cost prohibitive big bite that Virgin can't chew. At this point Virgin is illegally dumping capacity in the US market. In more normal days Virgin would be up to its ears in DOJ attorneys, but in these times government officials are only too happy to unload some Brits of their money to employ California residents, thankfully accepting the money as the teacup sized bailing operation which might prolong the buoyancy of the Titanic. Eventually whoever is funding this folly will pull the plug. Great airline, I guess. But it is economic nonsense. The surprise is that it has been around this long. |
Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1241026)
Reregulation of the industry is the only way it will stop.
Don't hold your breath waiting for that though! Too many Congressmen and Senators want to fly with their girlfriends to their condos in Palm Beach, for $49. Unfortunately, it's 2012, and Congress cares about something completely different now. Any new rules would exist to protect the rights of the passenger, and do absolutely nothing to return pilots to the pay or schedules of the pre-'78. If anything, it would handcuff pilots to pitiful wages, likely restrict labor actions to more severe rules than the RLA, and permanently put a wet blanket on "improving the profession" which would require further Congressional action to undo. A terrible, terrible idea. |
Quote: Originally Posted by gloopy Not friend of a friend, but directly from the (higher than a) VP in question. You can't possibly pretend you blew through half a billion dollars in a few years with just a few airplanes and have perpetually been down to your last 20 million or so every quarter while losing more than that almost every quarter anything other than "royal" intervention. If you are as experienced (and old) as you say, then you are a relatively short timer and I do understand you running the numbers on things and realizing that VX is likely the final stop for you. For others they are playing the "I'll be in the top 500 of a mega major one day" but whatever. Its all part of the very same labor busting longevity shredding churn the industry is made of. The cycle will always continue. Start up a new airline, pay everyone first year everything on a drastically reduced pay and benefits package, get new airplanes leapfrogging in technology and ammenities, wash, rinse, file bankruptcy because now your costs are higher and here comes another start up and repeat. I get it, I just don't like it. Don't h8 the playa though, its the game. Rich people will never, ever, get tired of playing with airplanes, and pilots will never not take the best deal they can get at any given time. Some cling to a fantasy that mass refusal to work by all pilots will make the labor corporate churn go away but that's the ultimate pipe dream. That will never happen nor should it even be a goal. Pure fantasy. But the many, many hundreds of aircraft on the order books for so called LCC's and present and future start ups while other airlines stagnate, shrink and fade away make this very much a zero sum game. If VX succeeds to the extent it strives to, the same amount of jobs will be lost at other carriers to provide lower paying and much more junior jobs there. That's just how it works. I guess in that regard we're like these guys: We're both trying to run the other out of a job, and to deny that is either a flat out lie or a hyper-idealized delusion. There is not room for all the present ULCC's, much less future ones, and the existing legacy airlines. Something has to give. "Just feeding my family" will be the ink the winners write the outcome of history in. This is the best summary of our industry I've seen in awhile. When people ask me what I think of VX, JB, Spirit, ect., I never quite know how to answer, but from now on I'm just going to paste this on my phone, and show it to them. I don't hold any grudges against my fellow pilots for taking these jobs, but I do resent the system that creates them, and keeps our compensation and work rules so poor. I have a friend who is younger and works for JB. He makes more than I do (I work for a legacy carrier- it doesn't matter which). It's hard for him to understand that one of the reasons my pay is so low, is because of the success of his company- which got successful for the reasons stated above by gloopy. I don't hold it against him, and I don't want to see his pay go down, but some day (possibly soon), he will be in my shoes watching some other ULCC start-up undercutting his company and putting downward pressure on his pay. Hopefully he'll be able to understand better then and maybe work towards a real solution. Going by history (and all the ridiculous arguments on this forum), I don't think the chances are too good. |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1242826)
The ONLY solution to this is one national seniority list. Of course, the pilots we so highly speak of will never go for it. You want to end that cycle? Create one seniority list, where pilots take their experience with them to an airline. It'll be a tought pill to swallow for this generation of pilots, but believe me the next upcoming generation will have it far better if we were to do so. The same management you blame also realizes that pilots are inherently self-serving with too much tied to their seniority at an airline.
But, no matter what, you will never, ever, see an industry where you can camp out in the right seat of an RJ for 20 years with one company then slide on over to the left seat of a 777 for another airline. It simply will never work like that, nor should it. National hiring list for new hires, maybe. NSL? No way. Look at USAir. They should have been allowed to liquidate, which would have made the rest of the industry much stronger and avoided most or all other furloughs. But to "protect labor" they were bailed out again and again and today have captains makins less than common industry FO rates and a baseline that is weaker for us all. A NSL will never happen but there are other ways to mitigate the churn. Labor can only do so much. The rest has to come from the regulators and even the companies. We need healthy airlines to crush the never ending barrage of start ups and foreigh dual subsidized EGO airlines. |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 1242928)
Never going to happen, nor should it. There are other ways to take the sting out of starting over and enable pilots to vote no even if it means shutting the doors. Ending the "first year pay" B scale (and in most cases first through at least second to as high as fifth year B scales).
But, no matter what, you will never, ever, see an industry where you can camp out in the right seat of an RJ for 20 years with one company then slide on over to the left seat of a 777 for another airline. It simply will never work like that, nor should it. National hiring list for new hires, maybe. NSL? No way. Look at USAir. They should have been allowed to liquidate, which would have made the rest of the industry much stronger and avoided most or all other furloughs. But to "protect labor" they were bailed out again and again and today have captains makins less than common industry FO rates and a baseline that is weaker for us all. A NSL will never happen but there are other ways to mitigate the churn. Labor can only do so much. The rest has to come from the regulators and even the companies. We need healthy airlines to crush the never ending barrage of start ups and foreigh dual subsidized EGO airlines. |
Originally Posted by Merlyn
(Post 1241010)
From where I sit I just don't see LCCs being responsible for whats wrong with this industry. JMAO
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Originally Posted by Splash
(Post 1242989)
How have they helped?
|
Well, a snarky question deserves an appropriate response.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years. LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago. As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups. Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours? Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession? Crickets. |
Originally Posted by Merlyn
(Post 1243773)
Well, a snarky question deserves an appropriate response.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years. LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago. As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups. Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours? Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession? Crickets. Not that we fare much better, hourly rates are comparable, but you have better work (soft money) rules. |
Originally Posted by Merlyn
(Post 1243773)
Well, a snarky question deserves an appropriate response.
LCCs have helped pilots who didn't want to fly at a regional for substandard pay, benefits and quality of life (entities created by the majors and fostered by ALPAs refusal to insist that regional pilots be covered by mainline contracts) neither did they wish to languish at the bottom of a massive seniority list with the prospects of furlough, reserve duty, and unpopular base assignments for years. LCCs have offered an opportunity for pilots to take a chance on a startup with the risk that entails exactly as Southwest, FedEx, and other pilots did a generation ago. As another post stated, my airline hasn't outsourced flying, created an alter ego, or used multiple feeders to whipsaw pilot groups. Lastly, two years ago the pilots at my LCC struck successfully on our behalf and yours to make this profession better. My ALPA pin has a battle star. Where's yours? Finally, what have you, or your airline done to improve this profession? Crickets. |
Originally Posted by gloopy
(Post 1241071)
I'm not against entrepreneurship, nor do I favor reregultion (although we're pretty well "regulated" as it is).
The problem is how the crony (non) capitalist system is set up. The government is supposed to vett all start ups for viability, yet the government blindly rubber stamps all of them while over 95% of them fail. But they are rubber stamped so the politicos can provide low fares to the masses, labor and industry stability be dammed. The DOT should never rubber stamp all these idiotic experiments. We need to end those subsidies and allow failing companies to fail. The amount of churn caused by the free market would be significantly less than the churn created by redundant layers of failed policy and misguided politics. |
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