Yeah, they did. The final one was only a month. On the rest I've never argued any of that. What ****ed me off was your arrogant: " Get your act together so we can all make some more change. DOH is a pipe dream and is holding everyone down." By your own admission you have 6 WHOLE years at DL. You don't know it all.

I've been around the airlines my entire life.

I don't know it all and will never say that I do... I do know that it USAPA's goal of a DOH list is a pipe dream and will never happen. It takes far less than a know it all to understand that one.

During the DL/NW integration I had a USair guy corner me at a football game me and lecture me on how our integration was going to go.... he obviously had no clue on SLI arbitration precedent and was stuck on the USAPA talking points.

Our list came out within a % of what I predicted it to go, FYI. My predictions on other integrations have gone with similar accuracy.

Good for you. Guess what? I told everyone I knew that US/AW wasn't going to go DOH. And I haven't been around the airlines all my life, just since I was 3. And, again, sometimes you need to stick to your own business. You didn't see me preaching about your recent contract, did you?

Not sure what your point is then... other than sticking to your own threads on a generic major airline forum.

That you don't know as much as you think you do.

Ok. :) Enjoy!

What a pro

Is that college grad or college entrant, Mr. DC-10? Quickest 4 years of school I've ever seen...

What happens next and when?

If the ruling stands the company will appeal, remember this is the company's lawsuit.

Appeal WHAT??
The 9th will just default to their last decision...
What he Co. seeks NO court can guarantee...
Its like obtaining immunity from product liability by an aircraft manufacturer....Its just won't happen

Great ANOTHER expert on the US east/west debacle speaks...
Dude how about learning YOUR contract first, before mingling in OTHERS business. I can care less what happens at BIG "D"...I suggest that you do the same for US... Have a nice day "Expert"....
By the way I've been in aviation BEFORE I was born... MY dad carried me around in his SACK!!!

Perhaps DP knew this all along, but his court filing was intended to obtain exactly what he got .... more delay.

Exactly!! Nothing more than a convenient delay tactic.

How is he wrong? It doesn't take an expert insider to see that US East captains are paid less than FOs on similar equipment at other majors. Its like East pilots don't really grasp how low their pay actually is... its completely astonishing that they're willing to hold up negotiations for something as stupid as DOH seniority list.

Nobody on the outside looking in thinks that you guys have a single shard of intelligence or credibility. Its not personal, its just the facts... you should be getting paid a lot more and its crazy to think that fighting a binding arbitration is worth not getting those pay raises. Heck, under a new contract with the Nic, even if things go horribly, the west takes the captain spots and you stay as an FO, you'd probably still be making more money than you would be now as a captain with a split list and current contract.

Seriously guys, its time to get over it, move on with life, accept that you can't have everything, and negotiate a contract better than what your regional subcontractors currently have. I bet that in lots of areas, pilots flying as US Airways Express have better work rules, vacation, etc than you guys do. How sad is that?

Here's where you go off the track. You don't know that. We don't work for DL, we work for a second tier major with a CEO that has said over and over and over again that the only way we are able to make money is on the backs of it's employees. A DL contract is not sitting on the table across from us, just waiting on us to drop the SLI. If if were, we'd be done, I guarantee it. What was and is still on the table is the inferior Kirby proposal and that does not make up for the loss of seniority.

A while back I offered for 80kts to tell us all he knew about the Nicolau award. How much does it affect pilots in different seniority ranges? What can we realistically get out of the company. Same offer to you, tell me what you know.

I've disagreed with my fellow east pilots about what to do about the Nic. I never thought we'd get out of it. Maybe I was wrong, maybe I was right, it's still yet to be seen, but until you are in our shoes you can't say what you would do.

October 04, 2012


Leonidas Update


On Tuesday, oral arguments were held before Judge Silver regarding the cross motions for summary judgment filed by USAPA and the West Class. The West Class sought an order granting Claim I of US Airway’s complaint, which would have declared that use of a non-Nicolau seniority list was a breach of USAPA’s Duty of Fair Representation. USAPA sought an order granting Claim II, which would have declared that use of a non-Nicolau seniority list was not a breach of USAPA’s DFR. Based on Judge Silver’s Proposed Order which was given to counsel of all three parties just prior to the hearing (but is NOT intended for publication), and based on Judge Silver’s comments and questions during oral arguments, it is clear that she is not inclined to grant either Claim I or Claim II outright. Furthermore, it appears that she is inclined to deny US Airway’s Claim III, which was the company's request for immunity from any liability relating to its ultimate position on seniority, regardless of the dispositions of Claims I and II.

As proposed, the language includes “Granted in Part, and Denied in Part” regarding USAPA's request. And, true-to-form, USAPA has already proclaimed outright victory as a result. However, taken as a whole, the proposed order does nothing to extinguish USAPA's liability to the West pilots and actually affirms the West position that US Airway's management will not be immune to our legal claims resulting from a decision to deviate from the arbitrated list in the future. We believe events will prove USAPA's claims of victory to be both hallow and premature as in reality, they will never be able to avoid the Nicolau Award. It appears there will remain only one safe harbor for both US Airways and USAPA and it is called “the Nic.”

We will comment further once Judge Silver issues her final order. What we will say now is that our attorneys agree with much of the substantive law discussion in the draft order.

As of today, we remain in strong legal position which we will continue to protect for as long as it takes to see justice through. We are not going away, and need not surrender our legal rights. Thank you for your continued financial support.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

Click here to Contribute

http://www.cactuspilot.com

And that is why they will appeal. Buy them at least 2 more years before they have to deal with usapa. Simple huh?

Or until the investors determine that litigation exposure to the west pilot group, outweighs PHX ability to generate adequate revenues. If the west boys think the Nic will hold the potential AA/US merger a hostage, you might be surprised with the end result...

Well you better think long and hard. Have you read the term sheet? Have you read the part that mandates the apa displace usapa asap? Engage your brain and tell me why would that be? After your brain is engaged read the term sheet again, the part that says the seniority won't be discussed until after jcba. Getting clear now? Did usapa inherit the Nic? If we merge before a usapa/lcc contract will the apa inherit all contracts from usapa including the Nic.? Getting the picture yet?.

This little squabble won't affect the merger one iota, because you see, the company lawyers eliminated the problem. usapa.

Keep telling yourselves That...
As I said, you might be shocked with the end result...
"USAPA inherit the Nic"...explain??

You do know that the Nicolau is the current system wide seniority list in your contract as modified by the TA? Usapa inherited it from alpa along with all other contract provisions. If the APA takes over they will inherit the Nic. as well (assuming we don't have a contract by then).

AOL has been preemptively claiming victory preceding the Addincton case, the 9th Court of Appeals, and now the Silver DJ case....Guess what!! Nic is still shelved.
Ask yourself this, if the Nic award is FEDERALLY BINDING, how come the 9th and now Silver, will NOT mandate its use??
Let me enlighten you, if I may. It is because Federal courts do not like to INTERVENE in internal union matters!! USAPA is free to negotiate!! Again I repeat...SENIORITY is a UNION matter!! The Co. is using the hollow threat of a co-joined DFR suit to drag this issue until eternity. If a deal between AA/US materialises, our little squabble will amount to a pile of beans..

Except for that pesky little detail of a common CBA being ratified...

Ok, but why would management spend a large amount of $$$$$$,
to obtain a delay that they already had, ie.

Permanent Injunction.
Section 6, Parked by the NMB.

Doesn't the companies primary litmus test; spending
money unnecessarily.

The 9th got it wrong, just ask judge Silver. The problem here is the 9th forbids us from looking at the legality of any of usapa's proposals, no matter how outlandish until there is a ratified contract. As an extreme example, usapa can propose placing all black pilots at the bottom of the list, according to the 9th, until the contract placing all black pilots at the bottom of the list is ratified we are not allowed to ask if that is a legal or illegal proposal. In my extreme case it is obvious this would be illegal, but the 9th says it doesn't matter because usapa has only "proposed" it until it is ratified. So in our case a court has already found usapa's 'proposal' illegal, management knows this and if they aid and abed usapa in signing a contract that they know another court found illegal, then the company is as guilty as usapa. As far as the RLA you better brush up, usapa inherited the Nic. and the nic. is the current list, there is no doubt about that.

Nope. The company must negotiate with usapa by law, so if they are in court they have an out from the nmb. Negotiations are only parked right now because we are in court.

Consider the amount of $$$ that the Co. has saved on having the east on loa 93 and the west on an industry sub-standard CBA. This squabble could be paid for 6 times over!!

I'm done here..Better spent effort trying to teach my dog Cantonese, than to attempt to stop Cacti from chasing His tail...
The "Nic" a Federally Binding SLI only applicable to the AOL cult followers...

Again, no dog in this fight (yet), but if current AA management claws it way through chapter 11 still in control, that term sheet is dead. The UCC has been loyal in suckling this managements breast and is the one applying pressure now for an AA pilots contract. That apparently being the case, one has to question whether any of the parties in your little soirée should plan on an outside source solving this conundrum.

Should the above Accor, I wonder if Parker would prefer the option of fragmenting U back in time and selling of U East to AA and perhaps running the old America West stand alone or merge that or acquire someone else ?

Under that scenario, AA would get the majority of what it seeks and with a significant fence for AA equipment, would be a simple SLI. The bottom line is that there remain many scenarios going forward and the certainty of a merger between AA and U while AA is still in BK is far from certain. Most AA pilots want nothing to do with the U CLA, but if it's a choice between that and the wholesale destruction of their careers via the present term sheet or the dead LBFO, then U CLA wins. A merger with U is NOT something most AA pilots would prefer over internal growth.

It doesn't matter, unless the 9th reverses itself. The only 2 ways out are a BK or a merger. A merger will happen, it might not be american but it will happen.

There you have it eaglefly. Now you just have to ignore the other things cacti has stated as fact that haven't actually been.

Maybe you guys should call JG Wentworth, see if they will give you cash now for your big settlement that is coming.

What wasn't a fact?

Here is just one of many:

"Impossible? Hmm, as Cleary showed us it is very simple to do, I guarantee you a hummel victory will have seeham filing the appeal to Silver's ruling, I'll put money on that. xxxxxx/cactiboss"

I have some more, but the best will come on Jan 1, 2013.

Judge Silver reversed herself, those statements were based on her accepting the case and saying she would end this. Now tell me which things on this thread are not true? BTW go read the transcripts.

You put the cart before the horse cacti, and you were WRONG. You GUARANTEED it.

I've read the transcript, thanks.

Silver hasn't issued her ruling. When she does we will KNOW what she has said and then we will see what the company does, what the west does, what USAPA does etc. I guarantee nothing in this debacle, except that it will continue to cost us a lot of money.

Oh, also we haven't seen Hummel having Seeham do anything, have we?

"Now this is a biggie, the company does NOT get immunity, in other words nothing was resolved at all. The company said they won't change the list without immunity and the judge did not give them immunity."

She has not issued her final ruling, they did discuss the liability, so you don't KNOW the company hasn't been given immunity. I doubt she will, but we don't KNOW. I can't find proof that the company has said they will not change the contract without immunity and you haven't produced it.

What else?