Phoenix court hears US Air seniority case
 

The Phoenix court is hearing the case over the seniority dispute. If the court rules that the Nic is the list, then what will be the easties next move? Appeal? Or if no appeal is granted, then I assume they will just walk away from negotiations? If for some miracle a TA is reached, I assume the greater number of east pilots will vote it down. Thus, the stall and delay continues.


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Appeal. I wouldnt be so sure a new TA with with the nic would be voted down. Its possible that some of the top 500 guys have had enough of this. Add in the west plus third listers, it might be enough to get a 50.1% in favor.

Quick, someone call Catiboss.

Please don't rush it, he will be here soon enough. He has probably been camped out at the courthouse for a few days to get a good seat.

can the recent new hires vote or do you have to be there a certain time? interesting times we're living in...

I haven't heard anything official but a west pilot that was there says Judge Silver basically said what the 9th said 2 years ago: The union has the right to negotiate.

Negotiate what? The nic or some other list? The suit asks specifically for what the list is or if the company is liable if they don't use the nic.

She evidently basically did nothing. Back to square one. The union is free to negotiate and if and when a list other than Nic. is ratified then the west is free to sue. No one alive today will probably ever live to see the resolution of this. The wheels of justice......

Ok, they are free to negotiate what they want. But the suit specifically asks if the company can be held liable for not adopting the nic. What was the answer to that?

I was there. The Judge ended up not answering any of the questions the company asked, in other words she won't issue a declaratory judgement. She did say the exact same thing the 9th said, usapa is free to negotiate and the west is free to sue after a ratified contract. Now this is a biggie, the company does NOT get immunity, in other words nothing was resolved at all. The company said they won't change the list without immunity and the judge did not give them immunity. We are exactly where we were the day before the suit was filed, 2 years and nothing to show for it.

The west can sue till the cows come home. The burden of proof that a legitimate DFR exists now rests on the West pilot group. The union USAPA is free to negotiate a cba NIC not inclusive!! The west will then have to prove how the union went to extremes to screw the west...You have NO CASE boys, your out of money and ideas.. Time to put this fiasco behind US and look forward to bigger things..AA/US.
If the west continues in their pursuit of the nic, it will be spun-off to OTHER entities... After all, the PHX yields are well bellow the preferred margins for the new AA..

Was the company given immunity? The company will not negotiate seniority with usapa. The company will appeal to the 9th, another 3 year or so wait. The west is in the same exact position as it was before this suit was filed.

NO judge can give ANYONE immunity from exposure to a law suit. Frivolous suits are filed daily in all walks of life, just to be dismissed..

If the AA/US merger occurs, all 3 pilot groups will be on a common CBA. A SLI will be arbitrated within 2 years. It will be VERY difficult for the west group to prove that they have been damaged...

Unless the nic is used in the sli. Even if done as a 3way the arbitrator will be very aware of his fellow arbitrators ruling.

Usapa sent you an email saying they won and will petition the NMB to restart negotiations since the seniority matter is now "settled". Now are you naive enough to think the company considers this settled when not one of their reasons for filing the DJ was answered? The company got absolutely no guidance today, as a matter of fact the judge said "you don't have to accept usapa's proposal if you don't want to". What is going on here is the judge didn't do Parker's dirty work for him. BTW this trial did help the west, as management put down in writing the TA is a fully execution-ed contract, a document that will help dfr2.

"Quick, someone call Catiboss"...

"Please don't rush it, he will be here soon enough. He has probably been camped out at the courthouse for a few days to get a good seat"...
followed by

"I was there"

:) Do I know him or what?

I thought the company was asking for one of three things that the judge couldn't give them. The first two were taken away by the 9th and as for immunity, how could she give them that?

I believe USAPA's lawyer told the company the same thing about not having to agree. We'll see what they say.

The company asked the court to answer counts 1 and 2, and if the court didn't answer either to give the company immunity from the west in count 3. Now this was a DJ case yet the judge said she wouldn't give the company a DJ, in fact the court today said it wouldn't answer any of the questions asked. So as of today, the company still does not have an answer, the judge basically deferred to the 9th's opinion. Negotiate and if usapa commits dfr you may be liable but we must wait for a contract to do that. Remember the west didn't sue, the company did, and they told the west attorneys they would appeal the decision and not negotiate.

Well it was supposed to be an important day. Most of the Leonidas guys were there and some of our guys that have been an integral part of the West battle since day one of the merger were as well. We have had pretty good legal analysis from them. USAPA can put forth any list they want but any list that does not follow the Nicolau award will result in a ripe DFR suit. And now the company will be on the hook as well if they accept USAPAs DOH list since the company has already accepted the NIC list.

Judge Silver was aware that Judge Wake found USPA guilty of DFR. She was also aware that the 9th ruled that the DFR does not occur until a contract is put forth. She asked about a 3 way seniority integration with East, West and AA. Problem is there is no mechanism for the West to be represented by themselves since USAPA did away with ALPA and the separate MECs and separate ratification. Any USAPA attempt to deviate from the Nic in negotiating a SLI going forward would, again, be a DFR. Since we have Judge Wake's ruling behind us a new DFR suit would be a speedy trial.

Really, though, in the end this is about the company and their failure to exert leadership. We have a binding contract between the parties - the Transition Agreement (TA). That contract specified the SLI process. That process was followed. Anyone that deviated from that contract is now subject to breach of contract. If Parker wants to get this done then all he has to say is we will use the list that as produced as a result of the TA. That is is safest legal recourse. He has benefitted for 5 years by keeping the groups separate, saving hundreds of millions of dollars. Now, when he has the chance to make hundreds more by combining with AA do you think he will take the easy way or the hard way? I think he will take the easy way out and go with the Nic list in a future SLI with AA. Remember, he cannot be held at fault if he just uses the list produced as a result of the TA. That is the safe legal ground.

Btw, so you understand what is going on. Judge Silver accepted jurisdiction over the case last year but today judge Silver said she does not have the jurisdiction she thought she had. So this case has no legal weight as a DJ will not be issued we go back as if this had never happened (unless company prevails at the 9th)

She did not issue a final ruling today. It is important to note that she showed the parties a draft memorandum. The final ruling will be more specific and may give a little more clarity

For Parker the simple solution is separate operations indefinitely, no CBA no raises. It's working well now, why change?

The East vs. the West.

http://i.imgur.com/A9fqL.gif

I love this graphic, but don't the west pilots want to move on?

US Airways new hires are going to start upgrading into left seats that West pilots should have. 330s are coming and at this rate West pilots will even miss out on the 350 deliveries! East will have 700 pilots retire in the next three years and West will miss out on all of this attrition.

If the merger AA merger fails because of Nic than West pilots will lose much more career progression than Nic would have ever brought.

I wish there was a way USAPA could establish separate representation for the West. Judge Silver specifically referenced negotiate three lists in an AA merger.

Maybe the seniority issue can just be handed off to McCatskill-Bond mediation?

That is funny, the question is, Is the cat on the bottom the East or the West.

The west of course.

We rotate ever so often....:D

No the west is not ready to move on. We have fleet mins and the Nic. Is still the list in our contract. Do you think we want to be stapled and then go merge with that list? Or do we stay separate and wait for a merge where we either get the Nic. Or a 3 way?

We all knew that DP would appeal the outcome of Jdg. Silvers ruling, regardless. It buys him time..
Both the 9th and now Silver have both agreed that seniority is a UNION matter. The fact is that a joint CBA, Nic non-inclusive, DOES NOT necessarily constitute a DFR. The union has a "Broad Margin" to negotiate in good faith. The final product might in fact benefit the west!!

Oh so NOW the nic is "still the list in our contract". Who's contract? And if so, why aren't you boys bidding the 330 yet?

If the Nic is not in our contracts as modified by the TA why is usapa trying to replace it with a different list?

I think the answer you seek, is quite obvious by now..

While we're arguing about this, Delta is talking about this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39382899/2015%20Rates.JPG

I say we just do it again under the McCaskill-Bond. Then it's law. The Nic predated the McCaskill-Bond, so the government will never have the balls to step in.

M/B specifically prohibits it's application to prior mergers.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure our pilot group hasn't merged yet. Let's get creative, I'm sure a lawyer could bend it a bit. I've read the whole M/B and I don't remember anything we couldn't work around.

"Prior Mergers"..That were never consummated... You fail to realize that if the AA/US thing happens, our previous TA is DOA. No provisions for a third party joining in!!
If we remain stand alone, a CBA encompassing the Nic is NON RATIFIABLE!!

Everything is complete except for a single cba. So there aren't any misunderstandings, we will sue anyone that touches the Nic. And as the company's attorney Siegal said, we will probably win. You boys forget the company does not have to accept any of usapa's seniority proposals that aren't the Nic. (the Nic. has been accepted and placed in our cba by management)

And you fail to realize that SENIORITY is a union matter!! If ANYONE tries to ram the NIC down OUR throats, we will sue EVERYBODY also!! You see there are roughly 2600 east pilots who's union's merger policy explicitly states DOH. This union was voted in by a MAJORITY!!...and its By-laws are NOW binding on the membership.....including YOU...