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lolwut 10-04-2012 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nwa757 (Post 1271733)

I really like the way you think man

MayDaze 10-05-2012 06:29 AM

A frustrated 3rd lister here.

West guys: What's the plan now? After the Silver ruling (or lack of) you've lost almost all 3rd lister support, especially after USAPA is now considering to meet in the middle with you. Are we supposed to wait around until you guys get your A330?

I believe we have to realistically look at a future without APA solving our problems.

cactiboss 10-05-2012 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayDaze (Post 1271878)
A frustrated 3rd lister here.

West guys: What's the plan now? After the Silver ruling (or lack of) you've lost almost all 3rd lister support, especially after USAPA is now considering to meet in the middle with you. Are we supposed to wait around until you guys get your A330?

I believe we have to realistically look at a future without APA solving our problems.

Are you serious? I say you guys should wait and read Silver's ruling before you make up your mind. Your support for usapa only guarantees you stay where you are contract wise. BTW the west never counts on the 3rd listers support, after all you fly day in and day out with the eastholes. We expected and it seems correct with your statement , that the third listers support the outright theft of west careers.

cactiboss 10-05-2012 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1271615)
"Now this is a biggie, the company does NOT get immunity, in other words nothing was resolved at all. The company said they won't change the list without immunity and the judge did not give them immunity."

She has not issued her final ruling, they did discuss the liability, so you don't KNOW the company hasn't been given immunity. I doubt she will, but we don't KNOW. I can't find proof that the company has said they will not change the contract without immunity and you haven't produced it.

What else?

I'll respond with this:

Quote:

October 4, 2012

Leonidas Update 2




Today, attorneys for the West Class filed a motion before Judge Silver to add language to her pending order in the Company’s Declaratory Action case. The West attorneys mostly agree with the proposed findings of law. This may come as a surprise to those who have only read USAPA's updates. Your surprise is probably justified given what has been reported by the union, because we believe it has been grossly inaccurate so far. We cannot publish the text from the “proposed order” at this time, but we can say the proposed order tracks closely to the line of questions and many of the statements made by Judge Silver at oral arguments on Tuesday. If you have not read the transcript from Tuesday’s hearing, we implore every US Airways pilot to do so. You may download the transcript here.

Since Judge Silver invited input from the parties concerning her proposed order, the West attorneys have filed a “Motion to Add Language to Order” which you can download here. We have two requests: (1) that she speak with the same level of clarity, but with greater detail; and (2), that if she chooses to dismiss the present action, that she do so conditionally and retain jurisdiction.

As to the first point, although the language in the proposed order is clear and our attorneys largely agree with the legal conclusions of the Court, (save for her belief that she does not have jurisdiction because of the Ninth’s opinion in Addington), we know from past experience in dealing with USAPA that clarity – standing alone – is not enough. There are two obvious legal inferences that can be drawn from the proposed order, and we are requesting that Judge Silver delineate inferences in black and white, unequivocal language because much of what she says will be (and already has been) inevitably misconstrued and mischaracterized by USAPA. Evidence of USAPA’s inability to perceive and/or correctly communicate was predictably and immediately available, and we submitted an affidavit by Capt. Roger Velez along with the Motion to encourage Judge Silver to amplify the core holdings of her ruling. You can download the affidavit here. Capt. Velez, along with the rest of the BPR, Officers, and multiple committees received an email from Capt. Gary Hummel about 90 minutes after the conclusion of the oral arguments. The email is only four sentences long, yet Capt. Hummel was still able to concisely convey a gross mischaracterization of the proposed order. This has resulted in a completely unwarranted celebration on the part of the dishonest East pilots leading USAPA who have made it their life's mission to elevate their personal gain over what is clearly the best course of action for all US Airways pilots, which is to accept the Nicolau and just move on. The half-life of this festival of gloat will be relatively short as any objective observer who sat through the oral arguments understood that all Judge Silver did was to reluctantly dismiss the Company’s Declaratory Action for ripeness, even though she clearly stated on the record that she believed the Ninth Circuit got it wrong with respect to the Addington lawsuit (see pg., 20, lines 13:18, oral arguments transcripts). As a consolation, she unambiguously shored-up many of the outstanding legal questions in highly beneficial fashion to the West. And, while we would greatly prefer she clarify her ruling somewhat to quash USAPA's false hopes, our rights are not remotely diminished even if the order issues as first proposed. Other than a few out-of-context sound bites for abuse by USAPA, there certainly is no “victory” for those wishing to avoid the Nicolau Award. All Judge Silver is saying is that because of the Ninth Circuit’s decision in Addington, she cannot prevent USAPA from proffering a non-Nicolau seniority list; and if the Company is concerned about accepting a non-Nicolau list, then they should heed the cautious advice of their attorneys and proceed accordingly because it is expected Judge Silver will not, in any way, absolve the company of potential liability to the West pilots.

The second point asks Judge Silver (if, in fact she proceeds to dismiss the Company’s Declaratory Action on ripeness grounds), that she does so conditionally. This will facilitate a quicker processing of the inevitable DFR lawsuit from the West against both USAPA (or its successor) and US Airways (or its successor) should the Company accept a non-Nicolau seniority list.

In closing, it was great to see so many West pilots at the oral arguments on Tuesday. What you witnessed was only made possible because of your financial support. Like Judge Silver and the Company, we were hoping to put the seniority matter to rest in this Declaratory Action but it appears that we must fight on. Your presence in the courtroom, and your continued contributions prove the West is still here, and we are not going away.

Have a great evening.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

Click here to Contribute

http://www.cactuspilot.com
Here are the links to the west filings.
http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl...eclaration.pdf

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl...e_to_Order.pdf

KillingMeSmalls 10-05-2012 07:15 AM

The West's new strategy:

http://i.imgur.com/4Nukk.gif

flyinawa 10-05-2012 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayDaze (Post 1271878)
A frustrated 3rd lister here.

West guys: What's the plan now? After the Silver ruling (or lack of) you've lost almost all 3rd lister support, especially after USAPA is now considering to meet in the middle with you. Are we supposed to wait around until you guys get your A330?

I believe we have to realistically look at a future without APA solving our problems.

Can you elaborate on USAPA's consideration of "meeting in the middle"? I wouldn't consider DOH with C and Rs to be meeting in the middle but perhaps you know something others don't.

flyinawa 10-05-2012 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillingMeSmalls (Post 1271907)
The West's new strategy:

http://i.imgur.com/4Nukk.gif

Funny..I thought that was the East after Nic ruled.

LittleBoyBlew 10-05-2012 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1271893)

Hey Dork, check your dates!!! 2013 is not here yet!!

cactiboss 10-05-2012 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1271977)
Hey Dork, check your dates!!! 2013 is not here yet!!

Don't worry, the Nic is dead, so says usapa.

cactiboss 10-05-2012 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinawa (Post 1271969)
Can you elaborate on USAPA's consideration of "meeting in the middle"? I wouldn't consider DOH with C and Rs to be meeting in the middle but perhaps you know something others don't.

Isn't it funny that he supports a union that will staple him below pilots that have been furloughed for 10 years?

GQpilot 10-05-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinawa (Post 1271972)
Funny..I thought that was the East after Nic ruled.

No kidding, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

What A Maroon! - YouTube

flyinawa 10-05-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1271983)
Isn't it funny that he supports a union that will staple him below pilots that have been furloughed for 10 years?

Without looking up his prior writings, based on that single post I'd infer he's echoing the words of his "old" USAir coworkers.

He hears about how the East are victims of a small number of devious and greedy West pilot's seniority stealing schemes. The West pilots are hanging everything up. Blame the West pilots.
Then, it's "Screw those guys. We out number them. We control the union. If they don't get on board, Parker is just going to sell them off". He fails to notice how the "they won't play fair" dots don't connect to the "we control the game" dots.

cactiboss 10-05-2012 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyinawa (Post 1272107)
Without looking up his prior writings, based on that single post I'd infer he's echoing the words of his "old" USAir coworkers.

He hears about how the East are victims of a small number of devious and greedy West pilot's seniority stealing schemes. The West pilots are hanging everything up. Blame the West pilots.
Then, it's "Screw those guys. We out number them. We control the union. If they don't get on board, Parker is just going to sell them off". He fails to notice how the "they won't play fair" dots don't connect to the "we control the game" dots.

Kind of disheartening when even third listers want to screw us.

Gallifrey 10-05-2012 04:25 PM

I just hope it gets resolved so cactiboss can go enjoy life :)

justjack 10-05-2012 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1272173)
Kind of disheartening when even third listers want to screw us.

No pilot wants to screw you, not third listers, not the East- although for sure DP will continue to if he is allowed. I hate being so blunt about it but no one wants anything that you have. Go ahead and knock yourself out with childish, nonproductive insults, but over time YOU sir, have defined yourself. I have come to hope that you are the vocal minority. Let's find a solution that works for both the East and West. Doug Parker has profited enough from our misfortune.

cactiboss 10-05-2012 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justjack (Post 1272330)
No pilot wants to screw you, not third listers, not the East- although for sure DP will continue to if he is allowed. I hate being so blunt about it but no one wants anything that you have. Go ahead and knock yourself out with childish, nonproductive insults, but over time YOU sir, have defined yourself. I have come to hope that you are the vocal minority. Let's find a solution that works for both the East and West. Doug Parker has profited enough from our misfortune.

Our misfortune ? Are you joking? It's not funny.

justjack 10-06-2012 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1272341)
Our misfortune ? Are you joking? It's not funny.

I think I agree with you- I think "misfortune" is not a correct description. Sh**storm didn't fit in the sentence.

cactiboss 10-06-2012 09:34 AM

October 05, 2012

Leonidas Update




As we reported last night, attorneys for the West Class filed a motion yesterday afternoon before Judge Silver recommending two additions be made to the Court’s proposed order. The basis for this request is the long and consistent history of USAPA to misconstrue legal principles. Mind you, we are not talking about vigorous advocacy before a court, we are talking about gross mischaracterization of law and facts which are routinely argued by USAPA.

Today, USAPA sent a communication which notified the membership that USAPA is filing a response to the West Class attorneys’ Motion to Add Language. In this communication, USAPA quotes directly from Judge Silver’s proposed order. Aside from the impropriety of directly quoting from the proposal, we will examine the quoted finding of law and then offer the complete legal analysis which the communication fails to provide.

USAPA counsel quotes Judge Silver stating that USAPA is free to negotiate. Not coincidentally, that is exactly what the Ninth Circuit said in the Addington opinion. Again, just as we discussed in last night’s update, Judge Silver made it very clear during Tuesday’s oral arguments that although she disagreed with the Ninth’s ruling in Addington, she is bound by it unless she ultimately decides that the Addington ruling does not apply to the Company’s case. In legal-speak, the issue is whether the ripeness in Addington is distinguishable from the Company’s Declaratory Action. That is the crux of what Mr. Siegel argued for the Company, and also what Mr. Harper argued on behalf of the West pilots.

If Judge Silver ultimately decides that Addington applies to the Company’s Declaratory Action, then the legal effect will be the same for the Company as it is for the West pilots: there can be no ripe claim until there is a ratified contract. It’s there in which the danger lies for the Company because they are required to negotiate with USAPA per the RLA, and it’s precisely those negotiations which build the “aiding and abetting” claim that the West will inevitably make against the Company if they agree to a non-Nicolau. This is the reality of our situation: (i) the Company knows they have to negotiate; (ii) they know USAPA will insist on a non-Nicolau; (iii) they know that a previous federal judge and jury already found USAPA’s non-Nicolau to constitute a DFR; (iv) without a declaration from Judge Silver on any of the claims in their Declaratory Action, they will be walking through a proverbial minefield towards an outcome that will surely saddle them with liability to the West pilots for agreeing to a non-Nicolau seniority integration.

Today’s communication by USAPA appears to intentionally omit the all-important and ever-present restriction to bargaining freedom; namely, the duty to fairly represent. To date, no judge has identified any purpose offered by USAPA as legitimate. In essence, counsel is letting USAPA walk off a cliff in the mistaken belief that pilots can fly without airplanes if they hire lawyers who say they can.

USAPA’s non-Nicolau seniority scheme has already been found to be in breach of their DFR by a Federal judge and jury. This is precisely what is controlling the situation between USAPA, the West and the Company. All US Airways pilots have an absolute right to be properly informed by their bargaining agent. We are entitled to a competent analysis of the legal issues, which means we are entitled to a complete analysis of the law as applied to our situation. Quoting only one sentence and then neglecting to explain the legal meaning is not a complete analysis. This has been a problem with USAPA since the day it was birthed. It is not a fully informed decision by the union members which USAPA seeks. Rather, for USAPA it is all about mischaracterization and obfuscation to bend and shape collective thought to the benefit of a few; a truly Machiavellian approach.

USAPA’s founders and follow-on leadership have never sought an honest, neutral risk assessment of their quest for a non-Nicolau seniority list. If they had done a true, neutral evaluation and presented it to all parties involved, maybe we would be far removed from this go-for-broke, win-at-all-cost adventure. Instead, USAPA has relied repeatedly on advice tailored to emotional desire versus an effective, beneficial outcome for all, even when staring down numerous Federal Court opinions telling them they are standing on quicksand.

Tuesday was not a win for USAPA. What we learned, again, was that USAPA is perhaps free to work on a different seniority solution during negotiations, but it is not free to ignore the legal consequences of repudiating the Nicolau Award, and neither is US Airways. What more do they need know?

Have a great weekend and thank you for your continued support.

Leonidas, LLC

Click here to Contribute

http://www.cactuspilot.com

LittleBoyBlew 10-06-2012 01:23 PM

....Just ONE question Cacti. How would the "West Class pilots" prove "Collusion" by the Co. If a joint East/West CBA were ratified, Nic NOT inclusive?
Silver was quite clear, and even used examples of what may constitute "Collusion". It is quite obvious that AOL's ability to prove a co-joined Co./USAPA DFR suit is a FAR stretch to say the least. It appears that BOTH courts have signaled that the BURDEN of proof that a legitimate DFR exists, lies on the West pilots...And only AFTER, not BEFORE, a the joint CBA is ratified!!
USAPA has the right to negotiate. And Nic, is nothing more than a FAILED attempt at implementing SLI protocols, of a by gone union..
The mere possibility of the Co. accepting an SLI other than the "Nic" will NOT prove "Collusion"..

flybywire44 10-06-2012 07:03 PM

I flew with an former ALPA East negotiator who said that ALPA East told ALPA West and ALPA National that ALPA East was losing control of the membership and that West had to sign an MOU honoring the movement and aircraft deliveries coming to East or USAPA would vote out ALPA representation...

West initially said no and by then it was too late.

We will have another three years of the status quo seniority list before this settled...

cactiboss 10-09-2012 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1272661)
....Just ONE question Cacti. How would the "West Class pilots" prove "Collusion" by the Co. If a joint East/West CBA were ratified, Nic NOT inclusive?
Silver was quite clear, and even used examples of what may constitute "Collusion". It is quite obvious that AOL's ability to prove a co-joined Co./USAPA DFR suit is a FAR stretch to say the least. It appears that BOTH courts have signaled that the BURDEN of proof that a legitimate DFR exists, lies on the West pilots...And only AFTER, not BEFORE, a the joint CBA is ratified!!
USAPA has the right to negotiate. And Nic, is nothing more than a FAILED attempt at implementing SLI protocols, of a by gone union..
The mere possibility of the Co. accepting an SLI other than the "Nic" will NOT prove "Collusion"..

Read the transcripts, "collusion" happens because the company is already knows that usapa was convicted of dfr, if they allow an illegal contract term knowing it's illegal they are "colluding". It boils down to one thing, did usapa inherit the Nic. award? yes or no? Btw if Silver order stands as written the east will not be very happy, not only that you will understand why the company is very upset, as currently written the proposed order pretty much ties the company up.

LittleBoyBlew 10-12-2012 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1274116)
Read the transcripts, "collusion" happens because the company is already knows that usapa was convicted of dfr, if they allow an illegal contract term knowing it's illegal they are "colluding". It boils down to one thing, did usapa inherit the Nic. award? yes or no? Btw if Silver order stands as written the east will not be very happy, not only that you will understand why the company is very upset, as currently written the proposed order pretty much ties the company up.

...I ask AGAIN. How will the west pilot group prove "collusion" by the Co. now that Silver has ruled?
I propose TWO simultaneous SLs. All PHX based pilots will bid according to the NIC award. Once a PHX pilot bids "OTHER" domiciles, they will be subjected to a DOH SL. You keep your toys, we keep ours..

80ktsClamp 10-12-2012 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1276096)
...I ask AGAIN. How will the west pilot group prove "collusion" by the Co. now that Silver has ruled?
I propose TWO simultaneous SLs. All PHX based pilots will bid according to the NIC award. Once a PHX pilot bids "OTHER" domiciles, they will be subjected to a DOH SL. You keep your toys, we keep ours..

Behold one of the renowned "DOH" dummies. This is why US makes less than other major and many regionals.

Such integrity!

LittleBoyBlew 10-12-2012 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1276114)
Behold one of the renowned "DOH" dummies. This is why US makes less than other major and many regionals.

Such integrity!

What was it that you recently said about "calling names"....Hmm..You are a MODERATOR, or are you not?
Your concept of "integrity" does not pay my bills...However, if my financial state bothers you, I can accept monetary contributions. Specially from such well paid "PROFESSIONALS" such as yourself..

80ktsClamp 10-12-2012 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1276128)
What was it that you recently said about "calling names"....Hmm..You are a MODERATOR, or are you not?

Doesn't mean I can't call you out. I saw that you even think a national seniority list should be DOH. That's downright delusional.

LittleBoyBlew 10-12-2012 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1276130)
Doesn't mean I can't call you out. I saw that you even think a national seniority list should be DOH. That's downright delusional.

My apologies....A national DOH list what a concept!!
Would it make you feel better if ALL DA pilots were placed on top??

80ktsClamp 10-12-2012 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1276132)
My apologies....A national DOH list what a concept!!
Would it make you feel better if ALL DA pilots were placed on top??

Why would I want Air Georgia at the top of the list? Do you have former soviet friends or something?

cactiboss 10-12-2012 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1276096)
...I ask AGAIN. How will the west pilot group prove "collusion" by the Co. now that Silver has ruled?
I propose TWO simultaneous SLs. All PHX based pilots will bid according to the NIC award. Once a PHX pilot bids "OTHER" domiciles, they will be subjected to a DOH SL. You keep your toys, we keep ours..

Have you read the whole ruling? You should, there is tons of stuff in there warning the company and usapa. She goes as far as saying the Nic. Is fair.

R57 relay 10-12-2012 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1276146)
Have you read the whole ruling? You should, there is tons of stuff in there warning the company and usapa. She goes as far as saying the Nic. Is fair.

Not exactly. Like a lot of her decision she dances around it. It was more of a warning to USAPA that the bar is high. This is what she says:


"Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award
and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the
result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is
running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective
bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an
appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."

I didn't think the fairness was on trial, was it?

cactiboss 10-12-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1276225)
Not exactly. Like a lot of her decision she dances around it. It was more of a warning to USAPA that the bar is high. This is what she says:


"Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach
its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award
and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the
result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is
running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective
bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an
appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.
Discarding
the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."

I didn't think the fairness was on trial, was it?

She dances around it? "powerful evidence of a fair result" I guess your right, she didn't say " super duper powerful evidence" I stand corrected.

BLEEDBLACKNGOLD 10-12-2012 08:35 PM

It would be amazing if this would ever end. Option 1- accept nic award and buy the other guys some beers. Option 2- Starting from top down on the list ratio pilot groups and buy the other guys some beers. If the east late 80's hire dates are upset about west new hires and loss of years of seniority then they will have to put the senior west pilots into the top 500 in a "fair manner to offset that". Option 3 - waste our careers in court/ law suits while operating under a bankruptcy contract and buy our own beers

R57 relay 10-13-2012 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1276230)
She dances around it? "powerful evidence of a fair result" I guess your right, she didn't say " super duper powerful evidence" I stand corrected.

You said that she said the award WAS fair. She didn't, and the arbitration wasn't on trial. You have a way of stating things as facts that are not.

She did make a statement that I think shows how she feels about it.


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