While the east side contract is yukky, I don't think negotiations for a new pay rates has allure/leverage that the west guys might think.

If things remain the same, a relatively senior east first officer will be looking at a (re) upgrade here in just a few short years. Less than top captains will be looking at getting on the 330. Those pay rates are for sure, rather than the "maybe" a new TA might offer with questionable/nonexistent advancement prospects.

Plus, the longer they wait it out under the current situation, the more time east guys get to advance on their list. Even if you apply the Nic, or something similar, in two or three years, there will be a lot of attrition/advancement on the east side due to their demographics, and the SLI will be applied at that point, not five years ago. No way any deal will include a bump and flush. No precedent for it at all.

So you've got two options here, status quo and spend another gazillion dollars on lawyers, or try to work a deal that gets you some pay/QoL bumps, and a SLI with some conditions and restrictions. Try to capture at least some of the growth/attrition seats, because the west guys have zero now.

The east guys wanted a fence. They've WON that part, in practice, if not in name.

Nu

Lol, I wasn't serious because it is ridiculous proposition. One of the most respected arbitrators in the country, picked by the east pilots btw, spent 23 days of hearings and testimony to come up with our seniority list.

NuGuy you have identified the pulse of the East pilot group. Contracts and wages are temporary. Seniority lasts your entire career. What is the rush to give your seniority away when another merger, 911, breakup and possible Chapter 11 is just around the corner. DP likes the status quo, gives him greater breakup options if the AA deal fails. If USAPA agreed to the NIC there still would not be a contract for years, it is to the company's advantage. Age 67 1/2 could also happen. Meanwhile enjoy your next trip

How many of the top 517 guys are still working?

Thats still flawed logic though. Assume that all happens and these senior FOs won't ever make it higher than A320 captain with the Nic, whereas they'd be A330 captains without it.

Topped out current pay rates:
East A320 CA: $125/hr
East A330 CA: $160/hr
Delta A320 CA: $182/hr
Southwest 737 CA: $216/hr

Seems to me like a combined contract, using the Nic, would still put east pilots in a better position. $160/hr A320 CA should be easily achievable in a new contract (its only 13% higher than current west rates). You've now created a situation where you'll be making the same amount of money but at a much lower required seniority with much more plentiful availability. And you can do it without killing your 60+ yearold body flying across the pond.

Plus you'll have better work rules, better vacation, all the other things that go along with getting rid of LOA 93... and those 767 and 330 CA spots with even higher pay rates to maybe obtain someday.

Bottom line: Who really cares if a couple west guys get to fly the A330? Good on them. You could make more as a A320 captain, with a better contract, if you accepted the Nic, then you could as an A330 captain now.

Then the east pilots will come back and say they want a staple.

That attitude isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

So are you saying the west starts from the compromise list, the Nic. and the east starts from doh? Don't you see what a preposterous question this is?

Probably almost all of them since age 65 hasnt taken hold.

I'm saying that nobody is making any progress whatsoever from their current positions so its time to start moving towards some mutually agreeable solution, not moving in the other direction.

Lol, that is a good one.

A west guy updated the Nic last year and it shows the former #517 now up to #389.

Hard to believe, huh?

The problem with what you say is that the current company offer for A320 capt. is about 14 less than current A330 capt. For those that don't check out as A320 capt, company proposed A330 F/O rate (takes over 26 years to hold a primary block on that in CLT) is slightly lower than current A320 capt, 76 is about 14 lower and A320 F/O is 28 lower. So you take the Nic and company offer and the chance is for a wash or pay cut. It's not like there is this huge mound of gold out there that everyone is turning their back on.

Now, as cacti says, there is probably room for more there. Thing is, almost every month the company holds a pilot expectation containment event they call the Crew News. Just about every month Parker or Kirby says that the revenue picture is not what it is at UA or DL, so they cannot and will not pay the same. So, what can we really get? That's the catch 22. We can't see what's really behind the curtain with the seniority fight, and without seeing what better deal we might be missing, we don't end the seniority fight.

One outcome of Judge Silver's ruling may be that the company actually does what the courts say it must: NEGOTIATE. They haven't really been doing that and admit it. They say they can't really do anything until the seniority fight is over, and they don't.

Well, you guys could always do something that is Nic like, but applied at some point in the future when the demographics are at least a bit closer. Call it a 5 years.

There's always the pull and plug, or even the dynamic list

But if the majority of both sides are completely married to the Nic or DOH, I don't see much room to maneuver. Seems like the Nic was a pretty good deal for the west side, in that it met a lot of their expectations, and I don't see a lawsuit-resistant number of them giving it up.

On the other hand, the east side has attrition, new hires, and even some growth. The thing about seniority lists is that it's not about people ahead of you, but the number of people behind you that counts. To get GOOD movement, you need people bailing off the top, and coming in at the bottom, and right now it looks like the east has that.

Every day the west guys decline to talk something other than the Nic, or at least adding some conditions and restrictions, is a day closer that it will be irrelevant anyway, and you've lost the time value of money.

The east side is an older group. They're going to start bailing out in droves in a couple of months. The make up of that list is going to drastically change in the next five years. A comparatively younger west guy, even if he takes something "less than Nic", is still going to do well in the coming years. You can't just look at the first day.

Nu

Very simplistic view and way off mark, I don't think you grasp who and what usapa is. I think what you write is offensive to every west pilot because it shows a lack of understanding of usapa and the situation they have forced the west into. I'll leave you with this: Less than a month ago, Usapa modified their UOM to include a provision that their merger committee is prohibited of proposing, accepting or considering any list other than DOH.

If you guys are so butthurt about USAPA why don't you just start an ALPA card drive?

It might work.

You asked for opinions, and I gave one. It holds the same weight as what my girlfriend's dog thinks.

That said, I'm not pro east or west. But trying to put yourself in the shoes of the people you are negotiation against is the first step in coming to a solution.

Now you can sit there and bang your fist on the table, and list every one of their slights, real or imagined, against you. At the end of the day, you will be in EXACLTY the same position you are now.

On the other hand, you could think of a way around their insistence of DOH. How would it look if it was DOH with a 5 or 10 year fence? How about a quota system (used in the NWA/REP merger)? Or some other creative solution?

You guys are on a precipace. If you continue down this path, you will no longer be fighting your fight to achieve a goal, but only "to win" or maybe not even than...maybe just to make sure the other side loses.

What you will have won is nothing but a Pyrrhic victory. If you are ok with that, fine.

Nu

I asked for opinions on the order by judge Silver. You must understand the basics, the losses already suffered the lack of representation etc. The west won't and can't negotiate with terrorists. The west is much better off staying separate than dealing with the east. I'll give u a couple of facts: 90% of any contract improvements go to the east pilots, any list other than the Nic. Greatly disadvantages the west in a future merger and the west loses the phx fleet minimums. If the east wins they just created a roadmap for the majority to impose seniority on the minority, final and binding isn't and M/B can be circumvented. The majority will be able to redo seniority lists at will in any matter they see fit, the minority then most wait for a ratified contract and sue to even be able to ask if what the majority did was legal to begin with.

Very well said Nu Guy.

Well, it sounds like your mind is made up.

By the way, when people start leaving out paragraphs, complete words, and using terms like "terrorists" to describe 55 year old guys pushing paper, they're ranting, so I guess we're done with a reasonable discussion.

Have fun with your journey.

Nu

Cacti, you do a lot to hurt your own cause. No one will rally around your position when you're openly hostile. At the end of the day, you're still all at the same airline. Your efforts would be better served by showing what improvements you want to the contract and how that matches the east goals as well.:p

Nu Guy
Everything that you suggested is classic rational choice, and at the very least a great starting point for both sides. I can only hope that enough time has passed that the majority can put emotions aside and that a compromise can be found. Unfortunately,I think that the possibility of a merger and the lengthy wait for the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment fed into the stubbornness of only Nic or only DOH.A reasonable discussion did not seem imperative because the problem would somehow be solved by outside factors. I have read the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment in its entirety several times. I believe that the NMB is going to be forced to unpark negotiations. Of course, a "self help" stage is completely out of the question because as management well knows, the West have said that they will cross the picket line. Still, a lot more damage can be done- to the pilot group and to the company. It is in the best interest of all sides to come up with something that while not perfect, sucks a lot less. I know a lot of pilots are banking on a merger. First of all, while a merger might be a good thing, the USAirways pilots need to negotiate a contract of their own, including provisions for a merger,with their own profitable company. Second, this merger is only a possibility but it is also a FUTURE possibility. If Parker negotiates the USAirways pilot contract via another pilot group, do we simply trust that other people will look out for our best interest? As bad as the Nic/DOH scenario is, scope clauses could be written that would make the harm from the Nic or DOH pale by comparison. The Phoenix Declaratory Judgment, coming out now before a merger is a window of opportunity that must not be missed by BOTH pilot groups.

Cactiboss- not to belabor the point. Let's assume that I respect what you just said. You should know that the East feel that they spent 23 YEARS saving their seniority list and that the Nic in its present form is so egregious that it totally negates all of those years. But again, I don't want to argue the point. I am simply, once again, reaching out to you, trying to help you to consider(not understand) a stance that you have chosen to totally underestimate. I am not suggesting that you AGREE with me.However, I want you to know that while we don't agree, I do understand how you feel. Furthermore, if we were to meet on the street, not knowing our geography, we would agree on so much more than we disagree. We are now at a crossroads. We can all grab each other by the neck and pull each other down a road that is certain ruin - or we can choose to take a path that ensures our survival. Make no mistake, it is a choice- today.

Funny that we are at a "crossroads" as usapa is choking the life out of us it is so kind as to offer us a "deal" to take just a little bit less than everything. Very kind of you guys.

Not about being kind. This is about survival- for both of us.

Survival and good contracts come from unity, one group decided they didn't need it.

NO. Survival is to continue on, even through hardships; to persevere. The expectations of the past no longer exist for either side. The validity of the claims of either side no longer matters. There can be no unity amongst a group who see another pilots loss as their gain. But for the sake of everyone,get over it or get out of the way.

Any news, rumours, or rumours of rumours?

No contract negiotations are scheduled.

Hopefully they will be soon. This east west stuff makes for a good read. I feel bad for the AA pilots being stuck with Horton Hears a Who.

To me it seems like a Hobson's choice for AA. Our mess or their mess. I wonder if some of the bad blood with Horton will thin if they end up with an offer better than Parker's.

The declaratory judgement case was punted because the judge thought the case wasn't ripe. However, she issued a stern warning to USAPA that the path they were on was extremely dangerous and would almost certainly lead to a successful DFR.

This leaves the decision up to USAPA. The company has not just a good case but overwhelming compelling evidence that they would be subject to a lawsuit if they agreed to a Date of Hire seniority list. Therefore the NMB will continue to park USAPA as long as they stick to this list. USAPA has to change, they eliminated the west representation and make no effort to mask that their goal is only to represent the east pilots. Therefore, who is there left to compromise with? USAPA needs to change if they want a deal. Unfortunately that change is to admit they are on a disastrous path, they need to accept the Nicolau award and move on.

The sad thing is that the quest for "upgrades" and movement has never been analyzed in a logical manner. For instance if there are about 250 east pilots retiring per year in the near future and 50 west pilots then you have 300 total retirements. Standalone, the east would get 100% of 250 pilots leaving. Combined, they would get 2/3 of 300 or 200 upgrades. The way some east pilots talk you would think that they all got stapled to the bottom of the list, but most east pilots were either put at the top of the list or ratioed in.

So we are talking about a 50 pilot differential per year which amounts to a million or two million dollars. By comparison, one year of a Delta contract would add hundreds of millions of dollars to the entire group. So what you have is a net differential of about 1 or 2 million outweighing 300 or 400 million per year. This is insanity, pure and simple by USAPA. There is no economic justification for their stance as all their first officers would be "upgraded" to captain pay in one month simply by getting a Delta/United contract.

So what you have is pure unadulterated emotion taking over from all economic reason. The sad part is that USAPA will never win. As Jack points out, USAPA is now on a disastrous path. They could end up on one side of a seven year fence with the APA on the other side acting as their bargaining agent. Given the APA's history in mergers, every single LCC pilot should be wary of living with that arrangement.

Unfortunately, I think the ship has sailed on logic and reason over there. This is "mission from god" for them and they will never stop until they get run over. They have ignored every warning sign and dismissed every failure as someone else's fault. I think the ability to change is beyond them now.

Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it so. There is no DL or UA on the other side of the table for us to just take in exchange for giving up on the Nic. Our CEO and President had told us, repeatedly, that we are not going to get one outside of another merger. We are a massively fractured group that does not have the strength to make it so.

As far as the "stapled" comment goes, many were, and many more were just about as well off. Moving forward there is a massive shift of relative position from east to west. And because the east is on average older, many will never reach their unmerged positions.

Here is what Gill had to say about a similar issue with PA/NA:

Gill Opinion at 12. The Arbitrator concluded that "there are some `substantial practical inequities' in unrestricted operation of straight length of service which ... could not feasibly be cured in workable and readily administrable fashion by special protective provisions." The ratio that the Arbitrator adopted covers a much smaller portion of the list than the National pilots advocated. In rejecting the National pilots' contention that the ratio should extend farther down the list, the Arbitrator explained that the degree of disparity in length of service between Pan Am and National pilots increased farther down the list and thus, extending the ratio as the National pilots sought would, on balance, result in too great a disparity in length of service between Pan Am and National pilots who would be ratioed together at that point in the list. The Arbitrator also noted that even though those National pilots below the ratio portion would not reach their promotion expectancies until long after the Pan Am airmen on the list near them reached theirs, this inequity was offset by the fact that these National pilots were, on average, younger and thus had more time to reach their expectancies.

I think the same argument that US wouldn't have been around was probably made by NA pilots about Pan Am.

Doesn't really matter. We are where we are and as of today I don't see either side moving.

100% spot on. They're either too arrogant, stupid, or greedy to see the error of their ways. Discussions with them have the same effect as talking to a brick wall. Until they're completely run over by the bus I don't think they'll consider stepping out of the way.

G

Gee, look in the mirror much? You guys have lost 2 out of 3 court cases.

Is there any way to get a new pay rate while keeping sep ops?

Well, even if you got halfway to Delta you would still be ahead by a factor of 100 or 200, it is not even close to breakeven.

As far as the Gill award, when did the East pilots ever put forward any proposal like that? One even close to that? Never. Instead of trying to put forward a completely lopsided list like the DOH list, you guys should have tried to find some method to take care of the furloughed pilots without such an unbalanced approach. Mr. Nicolau practically begged you guys to come up with a different solution to help him with this quandry.

Instead, you guys took the ignorant way out. Your MEC, in order to protect themselves politically, stuck on the DOH list and did not change. If they had tried to come up with some compromise solution to help those furloughed pilots then they wouldn't have been stuck at the bottom. Arbitration is not about finding the middle ground between two extreme positions, it is about finding specific solutions to specific problems. Nicolau tried to address the longevity issue by putting 500+ east guys at the top of the list. Those pilots were all pretty much in their retirement positions and could have been protected by a fence. By abandoning their responsibility in order to protect themselves, your MEC and merger committee passed on a chance to help those furloughed pilots.

Date of Hire was too extreme in this case, but there are other ways to integrate lists. The east should have come up with something new and innovative instead of protecting their own rumps from political fallout.

As you said, no one is moving. You are stuck until you get run over by the APA. You are a massively fractured group because of poor leadership, plain and simple. I don't care what sign you hang on the union office, ALPA, APA, USAPA if you have bad leadership you will fail. The answers to all your problems lie within your own pilot group however you will fail to solve them because you choose the wrong path. Quit pointing fingers and look in the mirror.

Thank you for making my point, you can't even keep count. Or is it you just don't realize when you've lost? Oh yeah, thank you also for laying the concrete foundation for the NIC right over the grave of DOH.

G

So at this point, if USAPA is so confident of their position, they should negotiate a new contract and impliment DOH and let the chips fall where they may. After all, they claim they won, so it should be a done deal for them.

Let's see if they back up their rhetoric with action or if they cower in the shadows waiting for something else to relieve them of having to do that. On that note, has USAPA and Parker announced a new negotiations schedule ?

My sentiments exactly:

Skin it..go ahead, skin that Smoke Wagon and see what happens! - YouTube

There's a minority that knows that they've already lost, but if they can just convince the majority to keep up the good fight they can keep seperate ops, which is to their benefit.

Present that DOH list to Parker easties, skin that smoke wagon, and see what happens.

G