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-   -   Neutral opinion needed on east/west (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/70533-neutral-opinion-needed-east-west.html)

MayDaze 10-23-2012 05:52 PM

Eaglefly is right though. Third listers would sell out the east or the west for more money. It kind of reminds me of my second wife.

eaglefly 10-23-2012 05:59 PM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1281662)
If eaglefly is an indication of what I would have to fly with then I pray we don't merge with AA. No matter what else comes.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Even if we do merge, the fence will likely be long enough that it wouldn't be an issue.

Gallifrey 10-23-2012 06:06 PM


Originally Posted by MayDaze (Post 1281678)
Eaglefly is right though. Third listers would sell out the east or the west for more money. It kind of reminds me of my second wife.

The second wife part made me laugh. The east/west thing seriously needs to end.:o

cactiboss 10-23-2012 06:11 PM


Originally Posted by Gallifrey (Post 1281686)
The second wife part made me laugh. The east/west thing seriously needs to end.:o

It will when we merge with American.

Gallifrey 10-23-2012 06:12 PM

Is it certain? What are the guesses for fences and furloughs?

cactiboss 10-23-2012 06:26 PM


Originally Posted by Gallifrey (Post 1281690)
Is it certain? What are the guesses for fences and furloughs?

Yes it's certain, the term sheet was written by Doug's lawyers to end this and get a joint contract within 6 mos.

Gallifrey 10-23-2012 06:29 PM

Hopefully he's gotten good at mergers ;)

cactiboss 10-23-2012 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by Gallifrey (Post 1281708)
Hopefully he's gotten good at mergers ;)

I don't know about that but his lawyers sure figured out a way to fix his usair labor issues. Check out below:

This is what Judge Silver said:

When USAPA became the pilots’ new collective bargaining representative, it
succeeded “to the status of the former representative without alteration in the contract terms.”
Int’l Bhd. of Teamsters v. Texas Int’l Airlines, Inc., 717 F.2d 157, 163 (5th Cir. 1983). As
there does not appear to be any dispute that the Transition Agreement was part of the contract
between the pilots and US Airways, the Transition Agreement applies to USAPA. Even the
case which USAPA relies upon states there is a “general principle that collective bargaining
agreements survive a change in representative.” Ass’n of Flight Attendants, AFL-CIO v.
USAir, Inc., 24 F.3d 1432, 1439 (D.C. Cir. 1994). Thus, just as ALPA would have been
bound by the Transition Agreement had it remained the pilots’ representative, USAPA is
bound by the Transition Agreement.2
This is what the term sheet with apa says:

Apa shall file single carrier petition with national mediation board as soon as practical after the effective date of por
So you see, APA takes over right away and it is the successor to the Nicolau award. Usapa gone, problem gone.

cactusmike 10-23-2012 06:57 PM

A caveat. The merger is not certain. No one knows if Dug can pull this off. But if he does the language is clear that we will not have the goatflock. seniority battle we have now because there is clear language that the SLI will ultimately go to binding arbitration. Binding will mean binding.

Seaslap8 10-23-2012 07:29 PM


Originally Posted by Gallifrey (Post 1281690)
Is it certain? What are the guesses for fences and furloughs?

No, it is very clearly not "certain" right now.....what seems most likely is AMR emerging as a stand alone carrier, and then acquiring LCC...what that means for east/west/usapa/nic etc. is a crap shoot.

LittleBoyBlew 10-24-2012 05:20 AM


Originally Posted by Gallifrey (Post 1281690)
Is it certain? What are the guesses for fences and furloughs?

Just ask eagle...He seems to have the answers to ALL things wrong in the aviation universe...
Give the guy a flow through and you'd think hes Mr. Aviation weekly..

LittleBoyBlew 10-24-2012 05:23 AM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1281705)
Yes it's certain, the term sheet was written by Doug's lawyers to end this and get a joint contract within 6 mos.

..The term sheet will be DOA if the APA can secure a better deal with AMR...Then WHAT??
I'm inclining towards the possibility of AMR emerging as a stand alone, and then acquiring US...
This will surely end the east/west dispute....

LittleBoyBlew 10-24-2012 05:29 AM


Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 1281580)
Between our two situations, I'd take mine in a New York minute. :D

I cant say I blame you...After all "the path of least resistance" is the easiest way...

eaglefly 10-24-2012 08:20 AM


Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1281857)
Just ask eagle...He seems to have the answers to ALL things wrong in the aviation universe...
Give the guy a flow through and you'd think hes Mr. Aviation weekly..

What's aircraft size got to do with anything ?

Apparently you feel pilots at regional carriers are somehow inferior to real pilots like you regaridng industry information (or an opinion) simply because they don't fly a "big" airplane like you do.

Really blew, I understand your tender ego was badly bruised by our little discussion, but don't you think it's time to move on and return to blaming, attacking and belittling the west, instead of going over old posts of mine like the one above and rekindling your attack on me ?

At least then, you'd be squabbling with REAL pilots. ;)

eaglefly 10-24-2012 08:31 AM


Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1281861)
..The term sheet will be DOA if the APA can secure a better deal with AMR...Then WHAT??
I'm inclining towards the possibility of AMR emerging as a stand alone, and then acquiring US...
This will surely end the east/west dispute....

Actually, the CLA between APA and Parker requires Parker to have his POR approved by the court for that agreement to become our CBA, so us simply getting a deal with AMR wouldn't necessarily void the CLA.

None of will know the ultimate outcome until AA exits chapter 11.

cactusmike 10-24-2012 06:23 PM


Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 1281973)

Really blew, I understand your tender ego was badly bruised by our little discussion, but don't you think it's time to move on and return to blaming, attacking and belittling the west, instead of going over old posts of mine like the one above and rekindling your attack on me ?

At least then, you'd be squabbling with REAL pilots. ;)

Oh no, you don't get off that easy. Please continue your volleying back and forth. We Westies need the break.:cool:

eaglefly 10-25-2012 01:57 AM


Originally Posted by cactusmike (Post 1282266)
Oh no, you don't get off that easy. Please continue your volleying back and forth. We Westies need the break.:cool:

Anything I can do to help. ;)

R57 relay 10-25-2012 05:48 AM


Originally Posted by eaglefly (Post 1282361)
Anything I can do to help. ;)

If we merge then you will get to hear it off and on for the rest of your career. The History Channel will someday have a special on it, "East vs. West: The Hatfields and McCoys Were Pikers"

SewerPipeDvr 10-31-2012 07:29 AM


Originally Posted by LittleBoyBlew (Post 1281861)
..The term sheet will be DOA if the APA can secure a better deal with AMR...Then WHAT??
I'm inclining towards the possibility of AMR emerging as a stand alone, and then acquiring US...
This will surely end the east/west dispute....

Dallas Morning news stated APA and the company were close. Perhaps the company will emerge with a deal. Horton will leave with his moola and Parker will come in. Contract with US (Kirby in charge) AFTER BANKRUPTCY is filed for temp lift. Then maybe Parker will cherry pick the assets he wants. With the help of the APA hire needed captains on the bus equipment with seat and pay protection and put the furloughees to work as quickly as possible. Then shed the remaining baggage and everyone is happy. Except the now un-employed. Get rid of old equipment and lots of unhappy pilots. APA is now fully employed and all new captains in as new hires but seat and pay protection. Parker now king and a happy camper. Kirby brought over after shuting down the corpse. Anyone care to pick this apart? Anyone think Parker can pull this off?

LittleBoyBlew 10-31-2012 09:36 AM


Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr (Post 1285450)
Dallas Morning news stated APA and the company were close. Perhaps the company will emerge with a deal. Horton will leave with his moola and Parker will come in. Contract with US (Kirby in charge) AFTER BANKRUPTCY is filed for temp lift. Then maybe Parker will cherry pick the assets he wants. With the help of the APA hire needed captains on the bus equipment with seat and pay protection and put the furloughees to work as quickly as possible. Then shed the remaining baggage and everyone is happy. Except the now un-employed. Get rid of old equipment and lots of unhappy pilots. APA is now fully employed and all new captains in as new hires but seat and pay protection. Parker now king and a happy camper. Kirby brought over after shuting down the corpse. Anyone care to pick this apart? Anyone think Parker can pull this off?

..Or maybe Parker will furlough ALL AA pilots and have the east fly the new airline at loa93 rates till hell freezes over...That will make the UCC happy..
NO!!...No one can predict how this soap will turn out..AA has their protections, and we have ours..

cactiboss 11-01-2012 09:33 PM

Looks like the company isn't ready to give up.

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl...for_relief.pdf

West response

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl..._60_Motion.pdf

And here the east pilots opinion


Fellow CLT Pilots,

During the course of litigation surrounding the issue of seniority, we have generally avoided commenting about the positions and public statements of certain groups intending to advance the Nicolau award. However, in light of some recent misleading statements by these groups and the Company, we thought it appropriate to highlight some significant points in Judge Silver’s “Order” and “Judgment” to quell any doubt as to whether USAPA prevailed in the District Court in Phoenix.

If you are interested in reading the Order and/or Judgment issued by Judge Silver in their entirety, you can do so by clicking the links or in the Legal Library. For your convenience, we have reduced the documents to the following bullet points that should help dispel any rumors you may hear that USAPA did not prevail or that the Company did not receive clear direction as to its obligations and rights with regard to USAPA’s seniority proposal.

Found in the Judgment and Order are the following points:
“USAPA’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.”
“USAPA is free to pursue any seniority position it wishes during the collective bargaining negotiations.”
US Airways “must negotiate with USAPA and it need not insist on any particular seniority regime.”
“It is undisputed that the Transition Agreement can be modified at any time by written agreement of USAPA and US Airways.”
“There is no obvious impediment to USAPA and US Airways negotiating and agreeing upon any seniority regime they wish.”
“Seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement….”
“It is unlikely the West Pilots could successfully allege claims against US Airways merely for not insisting that USAPA continue to advocate for the Nicolau Award.”
USAPA’s Motion for Summary Judgment was GRANTED.
The West Pilots’ Motion for Summary Judgment was DENIED.
After reading the above bullet points from Judge Silver, it is difficult to comprehend how some are still claiming USAPA did not prevail, and thus must use the Nicolau award or that the Company still needs more direction. Please don’t be fooled. USAPA prevailed in PHX; the Company is not only free to negotiate but Judge Silver found that they “must” negotiate on the matter of seniority, and “need not insist on any particular seniority list”. The language is unambiguous.

Also being perpetuated by some is the myth that in her decision, Judge Silver expressed she disagreed with the 9th Circuit’s ruling in the Addington appeal and if it weren’t for the upper court “getting it wrong”, her decision would have bound USAPA to the Nicolau. There is no such expression by Judge Silver. Her only references to the 9th is in her acknowledgment that it ruled the earlier claim brought against USAPA was not ripe; and a case precedent where the 9th Circuit gave its opinion that seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement. She gave no indication whether she agreed with the 9th or not.

What she did, was use strong language to remind USAPA that if it is intent on pursuing a seniority list other than the Nicolau, it must not breach its duty of fair representation, or a viable claim against it may be brought. These are valid reminders to USAPA, but not anything USAPA hasn’t been aware of from the beginning.

Here are her reminders:
With that freedom comes risk, because the West Pilot Defendants may have viable legal claims in the future should the collective bargaining agreement contain a seniority provision harmful to a subsection of the union.
US Airways must evaluate any proposal by USAPA with some care to ensure that it is reasonable and supported by a legitimate union purpose.
By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized.
Again, these are valid reminders but they are not new to USAPA and not something Judge Silver came up with out of the blue; USAPA has always been aware of its obligations as memorialized in the Railway Labor Act (RLA) and case-precedent, and is certainly aware that legal action has always been a possibility by any union member. But remember, the West Class does not have a monopoly on this right nor does the RLA only apply to one segment of a union’s membership. USAPA is bound under the duty of fair representation and must apply it to all pilots, or possibly face a legitimate claim. And, when there is a ratified collective agreement and a duty of fair representation claim is filed, the usual DFR standard will apply, and the plaintiff or plaintiffs will be required to show that the seniority provision in the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), whatever it may be, is “so far outside a ‘wide range of reasonableness’ that it is wholly ‘irrational’ or ‘arbitrary’.” Air Line Pilots ***’n v. O’Neill, 499 U.S. 65, 78 (1991).

Another myth being circulated is that USAPA does not have a legitimate union purpose for pursuing something other than the Nicolau award. Common sense would dictate that Judge Silver obviously believes there are legitimate union purposes for setting aside the Nicolau Award. If she didn’t, she certainly wouldn’t have decided that USAPA had the right to propose something else, and that the Company was obligated to negotiate about something else. She would have simply dismissed USAPA’s claim and granted the West Class’ motion for summary judgment. But that’s not what happened. She did just the opposite.

There is no question that USAPA has a legitimate union purpose –in fact many good reasons – for a seniority proposal different from the Nicolau award. USAPA’s lawyers explained through the papers filed with the Court, why USAPA is justified in proposing something other than the Nicolau Award. Here are the main points:
USAPA has a duty to fairly represent not only former America West Pilots, but all US Airways pilots.
It is legitimate to integrate seniority based on date of hire.
It is legitimate to respect pre-merger career expectations.
It is legitimate to take into account changed circumstances including the relative economic strength and viability of America West flying VS US Airways flying.
USAPA is not required to follow the ALPA Merger Policy in effect at the time of the Nicolau Award, which eliminated length of service as a relevant consideration, but is entitled to pursue a “fair and equitable” integration.
It is legitimate to place a pilot with 25 years of seniority above a pilot with 9 years, or a pilot with 15-16 years seniority above a pilot still in ground school.
Each of the other crafts on the property integrated seniority based on date of hire, and no case-precedent holds that DOH integration violates the duty of fair representation.
This is certainly not meant to be a comprehensive list. There were more reasons listed in the papers filed with the Court, and considering that any future legal claim will be weighed against the circumstances at the time the claim is filed, there may be other reasons supporting something other than the Nicolau award.

This update should help clarify where we are, where we are going, and perhaps more importantly dispel some of the inaccuracies being perpetuated lately.

USAPA prevailed, the West Class’s motion was dismissed and the Company was told it must negotiate with USAPA about seniority.

As a result of Judge Silver ruling on USAPA’s behalf, the union, through President Hummel and our attorneys have reached out to both the West Class attorneys and the PHX Domicile Chairman seeking their willingness to sit down and have good-faith discussions with the union on USAPA’s seniority proposal. To date, the union has been rather harshly rebuffed by both parties and informed that it is “NIC or nothing”. Nevertheless, we will proceed with the best interest of all pilots in mind and with every intention of living up to our responsibilities as per the RLA while negotiating all sections of our next CBA including Section 22, seniority.

Captain Bill McKee Chairman (980) 875-7644
First Officer Steve Crimi Vice Chairman (980) 875-7645
First Officer Dewitt Ingram Vice Chairman (704) 497-7246

lolwut 11-02-2012 06:03 AM

Wow you guys sure do have one screwed up union.

R57 relay 11-02-2012 06:11 AM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1286344)
Looks like the company isn't ready to give up.

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl...for_relief.pdf

West response

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl..._60_Motion.pdf

And here the east pilots opinion

Cacti, do you see any problem with this statement from the company?

"The recent correspondence between the West Pilots and USAPA, exchanged after
the Court’s summary judgment decision, makes it abundantly clear that the seniority
dispute between USAPA and the West Pilots is intractable, and will not be resolved in the
collective bargaining negotiations that have been conducted with USAPA for more than
four years without success
."

cactiboss 11-02-2012 07:33 AM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1286441)
Cacti, do you see any problem with this statement from the company?

"The recent correspondence between the West Pilots and USAPA, exchanged after
the Court’s summary judgment decision, makes it abundantly clear that the seniority
dispute between USAPA and the West Pilots is intractable, and will not be resolved in the
collective bargaining negotiations that have been conducted with USAPA for more than
four years without success
."

Doesn't matter what I think, the company refuses to work with usapa is pretty much all that needs to be said. Usapa has no legitimate union purpose, all the things the clt, phl and dca reps say has already been found to be a dfr. You expect the company to help usapa commit knowing what they know? The 9th got it wrong, short of a merger they will have to fix it.

LittleBoyBlew 11-02-2012 08:48 AM

The Co. is playing the part of the victim, and reaping the rewards of a substandard pilot contract. They have ALL to gain. The only losers in this game are WE the pilots.
If and when a new CBA meets their needs, this little seniority squabble will be resolved asap.
The 9th will simply refer to their previous ruling...
Nothing more than a delay tactic. They know it we know it..
No worries, once hiring ramps up at other carriers, this place will empty out like an unplugged toilet. Many of the 3rd listers are here to gain a type rating and move on..
The rest of US will ride out the storm and recapture our attrition. The west will continue in their stagnation. But at least PHX will be saved....

R57 relay 11-02-2012 09:19 AM


Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1286480)
Doesn't matter what I think

That's never stopped you before.:rolleyes:

The negotiation are not between east and west, right? How many times have you guys told us just that? That the west has no one to bargain for them and the USAPA has the right and responsibility to negotiate for west pilots? Thing is, there has been NO negotiation between the company and USAPA over section 22. When USAPA said that the east pilots would not ratify a joint contract with the Nic in it, you guys rightly said "How do you know? There has been no vote." Same here. How does the company know that a solution could not be formed if they have never tried? What is said and what is voted on is often different.

I always thought the whole DJ was a delay tactic and now I feel even more sure of that. With the ruling, the company had they plenty of room to do what they wanted. They could have waited until the appeal clock was done, told USAPA "let's negotiate, but we start with the Nic" and USAPA would have had a hard time doing anything about it. Now if Judge Silver revises her ruling against USAPA, they will appeal all the way to the SCOTUS.

Involving the company in this mess has just allowed them to drag it out.

cactiboss 11-02-2012 10:42 AM

Seniority is a permissible not mandatory subject for negotiations, the company does not have to negotiate seniority if it doesn't want to (Silvers point exactly, if company s scared of west lawsuit they can say no to usapa). So you are right, this is about delay.

SewerPipeDvr 11-02-2012 02:08 PM

You guys are a hoot! You "think" the DJ is a delay tactic? Step back and look. The company has played the pilots like a banjo. Seven years worth to date. If no merger or buyout they should be able to keep it going much longer. At least until the new hires outnumber the retards and take over.

The east pilot's make a common mistake. They believe they are fighting "for whats right". This is not a fight about right or wrong. This is a legal matter. What's legal is not the same as right or wrong. It's just about the law. You don't want the Nic after agreeing to binding arbitration. So pay the price.

Shame on the east for suing Seham. He did exactly what the east hired him to do. On the first day of law school in Intro a student hears the important statement " Everyone has a right to be heard in a court of law. It is your job to provide that". The east has been heard. They have kept the Nic arbitration at bay for seven years. Seham did his job. (and if his office management is worth a whit their documentation will win the case. To rub salt into the wound the east will being paying his legal fees. Lots and lots of juicy fees)

I had dinner two weeks ago with a couple of active APA members. All disliked USAPA for lowering the profession and allowing the company control them. They put US Air in the same class as Spirit and Frontier. They want the very minimum number of US pilots on property after they take over US. The stand alone is looking good. Those counting on a merger are counting their chickens before they are hatched. Whispers are going around that Parker might be working a deal with APA. Perhaps he figured out a way to take US Air into chapter 11 after he moves over, break the contracts and sell off what he wants to AA. Bring over any needed pilots as new hires with seat and pay protections (the carrot) and put all APA to work. Then Chapter 7 the remains. Gets rid of old equipment and lots of useless pilots ensuring no cheap competition. Who knows for sure. The big question remains can Parker run AA or will the Peter Principle bite him in the ass. All agreed APA will not allow separate ops. That is a non starter from their point of view.

R57 relay 11-02-2012 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr (Post 1286656)
You guys are a hoot! You "think" the DJ is a delay tactic? Step back and look. The company has played the pilots like a banjo. Seven years worth to date. If no merger or buyout they should be able to keep it going much longer. At least until the new hires outnumber the retards and take over.

The east pilot's make a common mistake. They believe they are fighting "for whats right". This is not a fight about right or wrong. This is a legal matter. What's legal is not the same as right or wrong. It's just about the law. You don't want the Nic after agreeing to binding arbitration. So pay the price.

Shame on the east for suing Seham. He did exactly what the east hired him to do. On the first day of law school in Intro a student hears the important statement " Everyone has a right to be heard in a court of law. It is your job to provide that". The east has been heard. They have kept the Nic arbitration at bay for seven years. Seham did his job. (and if his office management is worth a whit their documentation will win the case. To rub salt into the wound the east will being paying his legal fees. Lots and lots of juicy fees)

I had dinner two weeks ago with a couple of active APA members. All disliked USAPA for lowering the profession and allowing the company control them. They put US Air in the same class as Spirit and Frontier. They want the very minimum number of US pilots on property after they take over US. The stand alone is looking good. Those counting on a merger are counting their chickens before they are hatched. Whispers are going around that Parker might be working a deal with APA. Perhaps he figured out a way to take US Air into chapter 11 after he moves over, break the contracts and sell off what he wants to AA. Bring over any needed pilots as new hires with seat and pay protections (the carrot) and put all APA to work. Then Chapter 7 the remains. Gets rid of old equipment and lots of useless pilots ensuring no cheap competition. Who knows for sure. The big question remains can Parker run AA or will the Peter Principle bite him in the ass. All agreed APA will not allow separate ops. That is a non starter from their point of view.

Grey Goose again, or something stronger? Come clean sewer, who do YOU work for?

SewerPipeDvr 11-02-2012 06:15 PM

Retired. Happily retired. Left the business many many years ago. But my two best friends are still working. Handled both their divorces.

Greener pastures and all. After my third company went broke I left. Made a great deal more money and slept at home every night. And I prefer Captain Morgan Spiced or JD Black Label.

R57 relay 11-02-2012 07:19 PM


Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr (Post 1286757)
Retired. Happily retired. Left the business many many years ago. But my two best friends are still working. Handled both their divorces.

Greener pastures and all. After my third company went broke I left. Made a great deal more money and slept at home every night. And I prefer Captain Morgan Spiced or JD Black Label.

So since you are retired,happy and have good liquor, what about this situation gets you so passionate that you would call us "retards? "

Eastie Pilot 11-02-2012 08:03 PM


Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1286701)
Grey Goose again, or something stronger? Come clean sewer, who do YOU work for?

R57,

Sewerpipe makes Boeingboy look like a wise old man. Apparently being a liquered up divorce attorney from Texas that lost his medical 8 years ago due to heart disease (or retired as he sees it) and who knows a couple of American pilots more than qualifies him to discuss what is going on at US Airways. If you read his 16 posts (joined in October), you will realize that he doesn't understand the Railway Labor Act, thinks unions are unprofessional (to quote: "unions are for garbage men"), has no understanding of what it takes to get hired at a major airline in today's environment, and in fact, its not clear that he ever flew for a major airline. But hey, that's never stopped anyone from having an opinion on an Internet message board.

lolwut 11-02-2012 08:07 PM


Originally Posted by Eastie Pilot (Post 1286809)
R57,

Sewerpipe makes Boeingboy look like a wise old man. Apparently being a liquered up divorce attorney from Texas that lost his medical 8 years ago due to heart disease (or retired as he sees it) and who knows a couple of American pilots more than qualifies him to discuss what is going on at US Airways. If you read his 16 posts (joined in October), you will realize that he doesn't understand the Railway Labor Act, thinks unions are unprofessional (to quote: "unions are for garbage men"), has no understanding of what it takes to get hired at a major airline in today's environment, and in fact, its not clear that he ever flew for a major airline. But hey, that's never stopped anyone from having an opinion on an Internet message board.

I'm not an airline pilot. Heck I'm not even human.

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/1...bqkRro_Xg2.jpg

Eastie Pilot 11-02-2012 08:14 PM


Originally Posted by lolwut (Post 1286810)
I'm not an airline pilot. Heck I'm not even human.

https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/1...bqkRro_Xg2.jpg

Lolwut,

I may not always agree with you, but that's some funny stuff there! You might just make it to a major one day.

justjack 11-02-2012 08:48 PM

[QUOTE=cactiboss;1286344]Looks like the company isn't ready to give up.

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl...for_relief.pdf

West response

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Decl..._60_Motion.pdf

This is yet another not so thinly veiled attempt on the part of USAirways management to avoid any contract negotiations with its own employees. Parker is only interested in negotiating with the weak- employees who have already been crushed by another management group. I would say that Parker is one despicable man, but using the word “man” to describe Doug Parker disgraces the human race. There is no doubt that the courts will rule against the company but the results are the same- the delays will keep coming. Hopefully the NMB will find a modicum of decency and finally call an end to USAirways constant manipulation of the RLA and the courts to circumvent the negotiation process. More importantly, the pilots at USAirways will always remember that a contract NEVER ends, it merely becomes amendable for the employee. The company can and will always have bankruptcy laws, elastic math and outsourcing threats when they want to “amend” a contract. NEVER FORGET. The company must not be rewarded for these delays. Retroactive pay is mandatory.

justjack 11-02-2012 09:09 PM

And since the company brought it up- by all means let's talk about a "Hobson's choice" - one like LOA 93. In fact it is precisely a Hobson's choice that the company is working on now. Take the deal that we work out with American or nothing at all.
If the company were so intensely worried about the legal ramifications of a contract that either one side or the other would prosecute, then why didn't they at least try to put enough money on the table to encourage enough defectors from both sides?

AZFlyer 11-02-2012 10:26 PM

Whats not to like about these guys??

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/icywl.jpg

Because some of you are you dying to know why they're dressed like that:

SewerPipeDvr 11-03-2012 06:57 AM


Originally Posted by Eastie Pilot (Post 1286809)
R57,

Sewerpipe makes Boeingboy look like a wise old man. Apparently being a liquered up divorce attorney from Texas that lost his medical 8 years ago due to heart disease (or retired as he sees it) and who knows a couple of American pilots more than qualifies him to discuss what is going on at US Airways. If you read his 16 posts (joined in October), you will realize that he doesn't understand the Railway Labor Act, thinks unions are unprofessional (to quote: "unions are for garbage men"), has no understanding of what it takes to get hired at a major airline in today's environment, and in fact, its not clear that he ever flew for a major airline. But hey, that's never stopped anyone from having an opinion on an Internet message board.

To many assumptions on your part. Easy now to understand the US Air problems.
First of all I am not a divorce attorney. But they are not difficult to handle and for select friends I do so. Yes I lost my medical due to heart disease 8 years ago. Sold the 421. And retired on my disability insurance and retirement which was quite substantial. I have forgotten more about labor law than you even know exist. But I don't care to keep up with new case law anymore. I know enough about US Air but those opinions were not my own. My friends at AA expressed this. Paraphrased but accurate. Certainly I did not fly at a major. I got out of a Sewerpipe and never looked back. As far as MY opinion of the unions for Professional Pilots? This reply from Night Hawk 6 summed it up very well.

"APA leadership(?) out of touch, say it ain't so. Unfortunately the membership is out of touch as are most members of the airline pilot profession. Relying on negotiating tactics and associations designed in the 1930's for a regulated industry is what is out of touch. Working under the thumb of government regulations written in 1926 is out of touch. Pilots refuse to take the action necessary to protect and promote their profession thus you see pilots reduced to bus driver status in the eyes of their employers, fellow employees and the general public. The entire pilot profession should have taken action the moment the first pilot lost the first dime due to a bankruptcy ruling, but we all know what happened, nothing. Very sad."

Pilots are some of the most intelligent people working. Both my friends would astound anybody with a brain with the depth of their knowledge. They both hate what has happened to this industry and cannot wait to get out. So enjoy your life and I suspect you will not be happy camper in the future as you already seem defensive and angry. Life is too short.

Going to the lodge! Deer hunting starts today and it will be a great two weeks! Great hunting, great food and great drink and even better company. Including my two best friends at AA. Good day to all.

Eastie Pilot 11-03-2012 01:52 PM


Originally Posted by SewerPipeDvr (Post 1286911)
To many assumptions on your part. Easy now to understand the US Air problems.
First of all I am not a divorce attorney. But they are not difficult to handle and for select friends I do so. Yes I lost my medical due to heart disease 8 years ago. Sold the 421. And retired on my disability insurance and retirement which was quite substantial. I have forgotten more about labor law than you even know exist. But I don't care to keep up with new case law anymore. I know enough about US Air but those opinions were not my own. My friends at AA expressed this. Paraphrased but accurate. Certainly I did not fly at a major. I got out of a Sewerpipe and never looked back.

Pilots are some of the most intelligent people working. Both my friends would astound anybody with a brain with the depth of their knowledge. They both hate what has happened to this industry and cannot wait to get out. So enjoy your life and I suspect you will not be happy camper in the future as you already seem defensive and angry. Life is too short.

Going to the lodge! Deer hunting starts today and it will be a great two weeks! Great hunting, great food and great drink and even better company. Including my two best friends at AA. Good day to all.

Your post explains everything.

1. You never made it past a 19 seat metroliner (first of my 8 types by the way), but you know what is best for US Airways and American pilots, not to mention others here seeking to get on with a major.

2. You claim that pilots are some of the most intelligent people working, but your two buddies at American used you to handle their divorces, yet you hold no law degree of any kind. Some of the smartest people I ever knew didn't have a lick of common sense. I'd say your buddies qualify.

3. You claim that you "know more about labor law than you even know exist" (I'm sure that quote from you was grey goose induced). Funny thing is, you don't understand the most basic principles of the pilot contracts at US Airways, America West, or American. You suggested that Doug Parker could buy American and just "milk US Air of its assets. Cherry pick what he wants and get rid of the deadweight." Lucky for all involved, both US Airways pilots and the former America West pilots have these things called "contracts" that are governed by the Railway Labor Act. Each contains fleet minimums and block hour minimums (which both groups are already at) to prevent the Eastern Airlines/Lorenzo tactics that you just suggested. Easy to see how you feel about unions. You'd have fit right in with Lorenzo and Icahn.

4. You told another pilot looking for advice on what he should do to make it to a major that he should quit his Biz jet captain job and join a commuter to "build up his time". He already had over 3000 total time and 800 PIC Turbine. Seriously??? The PIC turbine time is extremely more valuable than total time droning around in the right seat of an RJ. Just ask any RJ f/o that has 5000 total time and no PIC turbine.

5. As far as your friends at AA that can't wait to get out. Ask them what is stopping them. Did they lose too much money in the divorces you handled for them? There are plenty of guys that would love to see them get out of the way. I still love my job. Should I make more? Sure, but I like the people I work with and look forward to going to work (when I actually have to go). The money is going back up. I have 23 more years to recover what I've lost. (Yes. I was born the year you started flying)

6. I am far from defensive and angry. Today is the 3rd and I only have one more trip this month (vacation). Wide body F/O life is good. Will it get better? Absolutely. :) However, when I see someone who is obviously clueless as far as this profession goes giving people blatantly horrible advice and speculating on things they don't even understand, I have to call them out on it. Hearsay from your buddies is not admissible in court of law.

7. You self admitted to drinking heavily while posting. I have to give you credit there. Lots of people post much more coherently after drinking copious amounts of alcohol.

Enjoy your deer hunting trip. My rifle already has a doe and a buck this year. One thing I will agree on with you is that "life is short". Take care of that "ticker" of yours, watch the booze, and get a little exercise. You just might live a little longer.


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