FMS Database dates....
04-05-2013, 12:59 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Early Retiree SWA
Posts: 354
FMS Database dates....
Ladies and Gents.
This is probably the wrong forum to put this in but figured I'd get the most responses....
In my 25 year airline career this is the first time this has ever happened and looking for some input/answers on it.
When exactly does an FMS database "expire"? Here's the scenario.
The current database dates say 3 Mar2013/4April2013 and the new uploaded database says 4April 2013/3May2013. I had a flight on the 4th of April and we would be landing at destination on the 4th of April (all GMT times).
Since my airline has the captain do the walkaround, I didnt' see my FO keep the database that ended 4April2013 to use during our 5 hour flight.
When I started inputing the approach info into the FMS just prior to top of descent for arrival at destination, I noticed the waypoints were named differently as well as some altitudes. The approach charts were all dated "Effective 4 April" and were new as well.
Evidently, the FMS datebase my FO selected didn't have the new approach info included. Now, over my career, I do know that it's always best to go with the most updated "anything" whether it be FMS dates, weather reports etc. But from a completely legal and technical aspect of this... since the older database said April 4th, it should have been "correct SOP" to use... but it was out of date.
I told my FO he should have picked the more current database starting on 4 April instead of ending on 4 April. Having said that, I can see nothing wrong with using the dates ending with 4 April 2013.
I scoured my company manuals to find an absolute answer as to exactly when on the 4th of April (or any date) the old database would have expired. After about 45 minutes of looking, I found absolutely no mention of this.
So... If the end of one database date coincides with the beginning of the next one eg, overlap, when exactly does the previous one officially expire.... and what is the source reference for this??? [/B] Would it not make more sense to have the end of one database state 3 April2013 and the beginning of the next state 4April 2013? Then there is no confusion at all.
Long question I know but thanks for offering your thoughts and answers.
Kap
This is probably the wrong forum to put this in but figured I'd get the most responses....
In my 25 year airline career this is the first time this has ever happened and looking for some input/answers on it.
When exactly does an FMS database "expire"? Here's the scenario.
The current database dates say 3 Mar2013/4April2013 and the new uploaded database says 4April 2013/3May2013. I had a flight on the 4th of April and we would be landing at destination on the 4th of April (all GMT times).
Since my airline has the captain do the walkaround, I didnt' see my FO keep the database that ended 4April2013 to use during our 5 hour flight.
When I started inputing the approach info into the FMS just prior to top of descent for arrival at destination, I noticed the waypoints were named differently as well as some altitudes. The approach charts were all dated "Effective 4 April" and were new as well.
Evidently, the FMS datebase my FO selected didn't have the new approach info included. Now, over my career, I do know that it's always best to go with the most updated "anything" whether it be FMS dates, weather reports etc. But from a completely legal and technical aspect of this... since the older database said April 4th, it should have been "correct SOP" to use... but it was out of date.
I told my FO he should have picked the more current database starting on 4 April instead of ending on 4 April. Having said that, I can see nothing wrong with using the dates ending with 4 April 2013.
I scoured my company manuals to find an absolute answer as to exactly when on the 4th of April (or any date) the old database would have expired. After about 45 minutes of looking, I found absolutely no mention of this.
So... If the end of one database date coincides with the beginning of the next one eg, overlap, when exactly does the previous one officially expire.... and what is the source reference for this??? [/B] Would it not make more sense to have the end of one database state 3 April2013 and the beginning of the next state 4April 2013? Then there is no confusion at all.
Long question I know but thanks for offering your thoughts and answers.
Kap
04-05-2013, 01:06 PM
#2
Working weekends
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 2,384
Based on reading your post, either one appears legal for April 4. Also, do you have "back up" to the database, such as VOR, etc ? Not advocating violating regs, but if my route of flight is backed up via old school VOR/etc, a one or two day expired database is not going to keep me awake at night.
04-05-2013, 01:30 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 183
I believe Jepps expire at 9:00 Zulu on the date indicated. This is probably the same no matter who the database/charts are from. If so, the dates in the FMS would be correct. The first database expires on the 4th at 9:00Z and the second one starts at 9, so both would include the date of the 4tg because both are active at some time during the 4th.
Note that this post is based on assumptions and bears no resemblance to real world activities. Personally, I would probably just choose the newer database if they are both active on that day.
Note that this post is based on assumptions and bears no resemblance to real world activities. Personally, I would probably just choose the newer database if they are both active on that day.
04-05-2013, 01:39 PM
#4
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Position: A319, A320, A321
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by Kapitanleutnant
Since my airline has the captain do the walkaround, I didnt' see my FO keep the database that ended 4April2013 to use during our 5 hour flight.
04-05-2013, 01:49 PM
#5
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Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
Kapitan
This from Jepp's website:
You could Google AIRAC Cycle, which is the publishing cycle for release if new data. FMS DB are on the same 28-day cycle.
GF
This from Jepp's website:
The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) developed the Aeronautical Information Regulation and Control (AIRAC) system, which has associated with it a series of effective dates. These dates occur on Thursdays at 28-day intervals and ensure significant changes only take effect on the predetermined AIRAC effective date.
Charts do not always include an effective date, but they will always have an issue date. Again, charts that do not have an effective date are considered effective (usable) upon receipt. Charts that include an effective date should only be used on or after that date, and if you really want to be exact:
• FAA and Canada—Aeronautical information in the U.S., U.S. territories and Canada is generally effective on the designated effective date at 09:01 Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). The effective time applies to airspace, airways and flight procedures. It allows for implementation between 01:00 and 06:00 local standard time. Local authorities may change the date or time of implementation due to local operational considerations. Check NOTAMs and contact local ATC for information.
• International—ICAO guidance specifies that aeronautical information should be effective on the designated effective date at 00:00 UTC. However, national and local authorities often change the effective time to allow for implementation during the local night or at other times due to local operational considerations. When an effective time other than 00:00 UTC is used, ICAO requires that it be published in the official Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) of the country. Check NOTAMs and contact local ATC for information.
Charts do not always include an effective date, but they will always have an issue date. Again, charts that do not have an effective date are considered effective (usable) upon receipt. Charts that include an effective date should only be used on or after that date, and if you really want to be exact:
• FAA and Canada—Aeronautical information in the U.S., U.S. territories and Canada is generally effective on the designated effective date at 09:01 Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). The effective time applies to airspace, airways and flight procedures. It allows for implementation between 01:00 and 06:00 local standard time. Local authorities may change the date or time of implementation due to local operational considerations. Check NOTAMs and contact local ATC for information.
• International—ICAO guidance specifies that aeronautical information should be effective on the designated effective date at 00:00 UTC. However, national and local authorities often change the effective time to allow for implementation during the local night or at other times due to local operational considerations. When an effective time other than 00:00 UTC is used, ICAO requires that it be published in the official Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) of the country. Check NOTAMs and contact local ATC for information.
GF
04-05-2013, 01:53 PM
#6
Don't need that HUD!
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: B777/B787 - Flight Test
Posts: 317
I've always thought to use 0901Z as the effective time for the use of a new database, and the corresponding expiration of the database that may have been used to initiate the flight.
0901Z is the only time reference I have ever been able to find regarding FAA charts and publications, it is published on the front cover of the A/FD.
Additionally, 0901Z seems to generally be around the lowest activity time of day for aviation operations in most of the USA. Depending on the local time zone and observance of daylight savings time, 0901Z will occur sometime between 1 AM and 5 AM in the 48 contiguous states of the US.
0901Z is the only time reference I have ever been able to find regarding FAA charts and publications, it is published on the front cover of the A/FD.
Additionally, 0901Z seems to generally be around the lowest activity time of day for aviation operations in most of the USA. Depending on the local time zone and observance of daylight savings time, 0901Z will occur sometime between 1 AM and 5 AM in the 48 contiguous states of the US.
04-05-2013, 04:12 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: the correct seat
Posts: 1,422
I also check the database expiry dates on the transition day. 0900GMT is the magic number.
Lots of airlines have the CA do the preflight. Typically, the PM will preflight. I only know of one carrier (in the ME) where the CA always does the preflight. It sounded weird at first, but it actually makes more sense than what we do here...
And before anybody asks, yes I'm a first officer :-)
Lots of airlines have the CA do the preflight. Typically, the PM will preflight. I only know of one carrier (in the ME) where the CA always does the preflight. It sounded weird at first, but it actually makes more sense than what we do here...
And before anybody asks, yes I'm a first officer :-)
04-05-2013, 04:14 PM
#10
Chief Jeppesen Updater
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Executive Transport Driver
Posts: 3,080
The real challenge comes on long distance flights where the changeover occurs during flight.
That said, every time I've encountered a similar situation on the changeover day, ATC has known in advance and usually asked if we could load a particular procedure.
That said, every time I've encountered a similar situation on the changeover day, ATC has known in advance and usually asked if we could load a particular procedure.
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