[QUOTE=qball;1409779]Another way of saying, "we royally f'd up, again".... if they come out and say this, that is.

This is my theory on how C Series outsourcing comes to Delta.

Once permitted at Alaska, it will have to be bought back if Alaska merges. SkyWest's MRJ order makes more and more sense if ALPA sells out at Alaska.

Fixed your post for ya, Bar.

GJ

TVM is an important factor. We would all like a raise now. Scope is going to be a bugger though. The Skywest MRJ order is very worrisome.

So the MRJ order at SKW is still a big mystery?

I heard Alaska pilots were offered a 16 percent raise over 4 years. I also heard NO scope protection. Will this really get voted in? I sure hope not!

I didn't think the last contract would pass the way it did. We have proven time and again that we will rollover and get our belly scratched. This will pass I'm sure. I believe more are worried about merging than scope. You will see Alaska farm out 100 seat flying.

When us normal line pilots get to see the contract at the end of the month we can let you know if that rumor is true.

I have noticed an overall lack of concern for scope though...

Air Group flying by Air Group pilots. No reason QX can't fly those jets.

Actually there is a reason.....There is no airline called the Alaska Air Group...It is a holding company......Alaska Airlines inc. is the airline in question. Horizon Air Industries is a completely separate airline....

Which is exactly why we have no scope. We have scope that says all Alaska airlines flying will be done by Alaska pilots. What we don't have is scope that covers the Alaska Air Group. So basically if we don't get a contract that addresses this issue we are S.O.L.

Are you serious? Ask the QX guys/gals where their RJ's went and who's flying them. Angle Lake will do what's best for them period...they don;t give a rip about their employees...it's all about the Share Price.

Baja.

As it should be. Big business / large corporations / publicly traded companies are a mindless beast. It is all about the greenback. Nothing else matters. We simply do our best to get as many greenbacks as we can for ourselves. We will never get everything we want - simply because that rarely happens in life - therefore, realistic expectations are a must. (Unless you simply enjoy beating your chest, talking about how bad you personally got screwed and whining about how unfair life is). We negotiate the best that we can and then go live life. Never take it personal. Remember, It's a mindless beast.

YOU get it Mudhen...but the problem is that most of the others don't. And that's why this will pass as did the last. The huggy-feely 'pet a whale, hug a cactus' Spirit is gone. The Air Group is just like the rest now and the employee group needs to understand this and vote accordingly.

Baja.

Considering pay only:

So, what would your play be in this situation. Let's say the rumors are true about an 11% pay raise, with subsequent small raises. Do you vote no and enter protracted contract negotiations to try to negotiate an extra $10-$15 (5%-10% depending on seat)? I want an industry leading contract as much as the next guy. I fear at this point, should the MEC approves this AIC, the pilot group has few options. As much as I'd like to vote no on this (based on rumors), because it doesn't even come close to my survey responses, I'm not sure I want to wait "as long as it takes" to reach my goal. These negotiations could easily turn into another APA vs AMR, or Airtran vs. NPA/ALPA. If it wasn't for BKs and mergers, it's possible neither of those airline's would have a contract today.

Now consider other factors that affect W2 and QOL. We have one of the highest, if not the highest, credit for days on vacation, credit for days in training, reserve guarantee. and pension (for the majority at this point).

We also have one of the best disability programs. My last captain told me that only FedEx, and UPS have comparable disability programs. Does Delta have something similar? What would happen to you tomorrow if you lost your medical? I don't want to take this captain's word for it, because I really have no idea what other airline's have in this regard.

You know both sides of the table put a value/cost to those parts of the contract.

The fading pension puts a challenging spin on this too. It has great value today, and the cost to the company diminishes over time. We also have two subgroups within our pilot group--those with a pension, which could be value at up to 17% of pay, and those who don't, which is valued at 13.5%.

Last, but not least, I can name 5 companies that pay more than Alaska: DAL, UA, WN, UPS, and FedEx.

This list of airlines is long that don't pay more than what AS could pay:
B6, F9, VX, G4, AA/US, NK, SY, HA and so on.

I'm not suggesting that all of those airlines are in the same financial situation as AS, but I'm merely pointing out that we don't negotiate in a vacuum. Even NK had to go on strike to win those wages, and they were still sub par after. NK is growing faster and, I believe, has a higher margin than AS.

I pointed this out on another forum, why would the union even bring this group a TA that isn't industry leading? What's a line pilot to do? Of course there's always scope, which will likely disappoint.

Sounds like you don't care who flies the 100 seaters for AS.