[QUOTE=sailingfun;1731368]Thanks, Sailing. It always amazes me how you guys have so much stuff archived.

Note that he never uses the words "cost neutral." Instead, he talks about the TA representing an "investment in our pilots." He then says that the investments in "our employees," which I take to mean all Delta employees (since they all got a raise) is covered by the fleet changes (which lowered DCI costs and increased revenue potential), productivity (obviously our 125 jobs lost), and profit sharing changes (we cashed ours in to pay for 2 of the 8.5% and the rest of the employees had the same done to them).

Investing in something, e.g., "our pilots," while it will hopefully pay dividends in the future, is certainly NOT cost neutral up front.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good propaganda rant by Carl and PD and index and 1067.....

[QUOTE=sailingfun;1731368]In other words, cost neutral. Keep wearing the blinders tsquare and enjoy all of that DALPA kool aid. Don't forget, aim low. :rolleyes:

" The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes, cover the investments in our employees."

What is it about this statement you do not understand?

RJs aside, NONE OF THE OTHER CONCESSIONS WERE NECESSARY.

We left an incredible amount of money on the table. $300 million plus.

We simply cannot afford to be duped again.

We need $1 billion date of signing. IMO $500 million in hourly rates and $500 in quality of life, medical, DC, etc.

We need to increase our date of signing hourly rates 20% plus and increase our days off by 2 a month.

From Seeking Alpha

"Delta is a certain market leader in the airline industry. The company still presents itself as being cheap, due to the recent earnings growth and abundance of free cash flow. It is likely that Delta will accomplish most of its debt and funding commitments in the next couple of years, which will allow the company to devote more cash to increasing its share price. Long term investors in Delta should be excited to look forward to the next 5 to 10 years."

No more concessions. No more cost neutral.

Delta MEC True Headings 14-2. "Historic C2015"

[QUOTE=Delta1067;1731408]Exactly right. "Cost neutral" means no net cost...

"The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes, cover the investments in our employees."

If the above quote from MC is true, then the result of C2012 was no net cost increase to Delta. In any case, he certainly said that.

I don't really care where the money comes from. Every contract involves changes. If RA discovered a gold mine under corporate HQ... and gave the pilot group all the profits... it would be cost neutral for the corporation. C2015 I expect significant returns and can't imagine giving up much of anything. The last sentence pretty much sums up my contract survey.

Amen! Here's the email I sent to MD today:

Captain Donatelli:


I read your most recent Chairman's Letter with interest. Specifically, the following quote intrigued me:

"We intend to negotiate with this company as one united group, bent on achieving the greatest contract in airline history."


I'm sure you realize that our current pay rates are a 34% cut in buying power compared to the buying power we had in 2004 with our C2K rates. To fully restore a 34% cut, it requires a 51% increase. That's the straight math on it. Now, I realize our current contract has some features that make an "apples to apples" comparison to C2K difficult. But bottom line, in order to achieve "the greatest contract in airline history" we are going to need something in the neighborhood of a 50% increase to our W2's.


I guess my question to you is this. Did you really intend to say that? Do you really mean it?


We've spent the past 10 years acting as if we do not expect anything even remotely like what it would take for restoration. Is that changing going forward?

[QUOTE=sailingfun;1731368]Sailing,

Since you seem to be able to find a lot of things from archives that the rest of us either don't have access to any more or can't find, could you locate the Deltanet article, I believe it was from Bastian, to the other employees when he announced that they were going to get raises six months early (Jan versus the normal July) because of the cost neutral nature of our contract.

I know that people get wrapped around the term cost neutral. Cost neutral does not mean that it cost the company nothing (many people have pointed out that we did indeed get pay raises). There are two sides of a ledger. I had HK talk to me for over an hour because I had asked my reps for a contract costing like what we used to get in BK. At the end of the talk, I still voted No because in an environment where the company was making money we were still in the mode of giving concessions.

I hope that is over, however after taking the survey it looks to me, my OPINION only, that the company will probably want SDP's, change our sick time again and want some more profit sharing back.

Delta pilots gave until it hurt during bk, and the company took at will.

Why would Delta pilots give anything back now? Why would DALPA even entertain the notion of any givebacks of any kind?

DALPA should be leading the charge against concessions. But it's not. What on earth are we getting for our dues money? We may be better off taking the company's marginal "keep the union out" blood money, flying to FARs, and saving our 1.9%.

Given DALPA's *****footing, We may be able to do better with the threat of a union than we do with a "union." *

The fact that we are even debating concessions here tells us all we need to know about "our" "union."

*50% + 1 of this post is hyperbole

[QUOTE=DAL 88 Driver;1731436]This whole argument is bizarre. The company pays us out of revenue. If they can make more revenue they can pay us more. That's the entire basis of how business works. If tomorrow a new jet comes out that reduces the companies maintenance and fuel costs and they pass that on to us your calling it cost neutral. Without revenue increases the company could never on a sustained basis pay us more!