Exactly, when asked by youngsters in the past if they should get a degree or not because "so in so" doesn't "require" it, I'd ask are you shooting to be part of the 3% who are hired without one or part of the 97% of major pilots that do have one?

Almost everyone in this thread is a college success story. We are in the very small minority though. Statistically, college goes horribly wrong for most people.

I am curious as what you mean by "goes horribly wrong".

This whole needing a degree thing is nothing more than another discriminator used to sift through applicants. I can foresee in the next ten years, the 4 yr degree will be more of a bonus rather than a required item to get the interview.

Do you need an degree to fly for a major? Nope, but you are doing your self a huge disservice by not having one.

Over the past decade (or two) we have seen HR go from being a support service to now being the gate-keeper of who gets an interview/job. Just another way for HR to justify their existence and go for a land grab in the corporate world.

No degree, and lots of debt; Less than half the people who start college, finish college.

Sadly, many are put in a debtor's mind set from the first day of college. The financial sector rejoices.

Hates Hispanics? Most people in the United States are a mix of something.

True. They ask for a degree because they can. Just like in my day
you needed 20/20 uncorrected to be hired. There was a huge supply of pilots so they could narrow applicants down by this and other factors like smoking...not sure how they could tell since I knew of a few that got through anyway. Maybe in the distant future the degree will go in the same direction, but for now...

So here's a question. Generally speaking, would the majors/legacies prefer someone with a 4-year-degree and no TPIC, or someone with TPIC but no 4-year-degree?

Realistically you need both right now. But if they had to choose, I suspect they want the college degree over TPIC.

Agreed, we had a regional F.O. In my class with zero TPIC. However, he did have a degree.

If any of your kids are headed to school, there are plenty of ways for kids to graduate w/ little debt, they just have to be willing to work hard outside of class. If your kids aren't fortunate enough to nail down a full ride with scholarships, I would highly recommend enlisting in the AIR National Guard. Most states offer 100% tuition assistance (plus quite a few other benefits). I took one semester off after high school, for basic training/tech school. I went on multiple trips to include a trip to the sandbox, while in college and still managed to graduate on time. I ended college with a bachelors and my CFII and a total of ~5k in student debt. I also held a few jobs that helped pay down debt.

I showed many of my classmates what the Guard had to offer and most were like, F that, I don't like being told what to do. Cool, enjoy being saddled with student loan debt until your in your late 30s.

Man, it's amazing how much of a hold anti-intellectualism has taken hold in America. The discussion about whether or not to become educated would be an absurd one 30 years ago. Now people actually defend the choice to not be educated as a virtue. Amazing.

College may not enhance your flying skills, but it does enhance your quality as an employee. Places like Delta want well-rounded employees. Technical flying skills truly are a minor part of being a pilot.

You can get an amen.

I suspect that it not so much anti-intellectualism, but more of defending to the death a poor decision made earlier in life.

Do you need a degree to be a pilot? No, just don't be surprised if you don't land a spot at a top tier airline.

It's no different than not having your ATP and not getting an invite either.

I disagree. It is possible to get a job at a top tier airline without a degree. It would be tougher but possible.

Without an ATP it is impossible.

From the data guys have posted -

College degrees - 99.9%+
TPIC - 90-95%+

If you can't figure those odds out, or which decision to make, having a four year degree, or even a masters degree, won't help.

The whole point of a degree is that you have proven that you can read a book, retain the information, and regurgitate it on demand. With the new "train yourself" no more ground schools, the airlines want to see that you are capable of self training. The common filter is a degree.

That's a small part of it, although plenty of non-degreed folks have extensive resumes which speak for their ability to learn. I think more to the point employers (and airline pilots themselves) view airline pilots as white-collar professionals and a degree is part of that image. I suspect they're leery of wholesale hiring of folks without degrees in that it might change the image or culture of the profession. Since they have such a surplus of applicants they can indulge themselves on this point.

Also, there are a variety of good reasons for not having a degree...

Finances (this one is somewhat weak these days, since loans are readily available).

Family situation.

Enlisted in military, then GI bill for flight training (the old GI bill would not cover both college and flight training).

There's also a couple potential bad reasons...lack of commitment/follow-through/work ethic, or even an attitude that "I don't need anybody to tell me stuff". Of course it's not so much people telling you stuff, it's you learning how other people came to their conclusions even (or especially) if you don't agree with said conclusions understanding how they came about is valuable.

Agreed. I'd also add: taking honors level courses in high school for free college credit, going to local community college for 2 years, then going to an in state school, applying for every scholarship you can find no matter how unrelated or small the amount, and working diligently so as not to have to retake courses due to failure or take an extra year to finish your degree.
Those strategies should at least leave you with significantly less debt than your peers.
Unless you go to an Ivy League school, the school name on your diploma matters little. Too many kids fall victim to big name schools and their fancy brochures and websites and reputations and sports team msrketing.

Whoa. tough crowd. I think it's generational as well. "Better" decisions are being made now due to the existence of message boards like this one. Back in the day (and i'm only 43), There was the Air Jobs Digest. That's it. No home computers. No forums to share info. Want to work at Coex? Delta? AA? You had to mail in an application. But what was known was that TPIC was everything. And honestly, college degree wasn't discussed much. It was so hard just to get hired at a regional (commuter) back in the day as well. You needed experience. Just about everyone had the shart scared out of them flying checks or freight in the middle of the night before a commuter would even look at you. So be careful for judging the older folks for not completing a degree. A lot of us mistakenly put all of our eggs in the TPIC basket and life got in the way for the rest.

I absolutely get that. Life will always get in the way.

I'm not sure we didn't get into that. But I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Not true. Just because an ATP is required to fly for an airline does not mean it's required to be hired by one. Sure you need the mins for it, but you don't necessarily need the actual certificate. But right now I would put it up there with the chances of getting hired w/o a degree, pretty slim...for the time being.

^^^THIS! Also, instead of buying books at a ridiculous price and selling them for nothing, check out the library. I was able to check out almost 50% of my required book (or the edition prior) from the university library.

Well the name does mean something. Case and point, a squadron mate of mine is going to UC Booth school of business. He has companies coming to him, trying to get him to work for them. He says it's not because he is so smart, but that he's a known quantity as a Booth grad. It's really a rather smart plan, work for a consulting company for a few years then they get hired into high paying exec jobs. Then he hires that company to continue to do consulting work. Talk about a self licking ice cream cone!

Also there is the fact that, if your family are lower wage earners many students pay little to nothing to attend big name schools such as Harvard. The article is a few years old, but still stands true. If these numbers are still correct, I would have paid nothing to go to school there...not that I was anywhere near academically competitive for such a school.

Financial aid increases by $10M | Harvard Gazette

Flying with commuters back in the late 1970's/early 1980's and guys knew they weren't going to the majors because they didn't have degrees. No college degree was the feeding ground for People's Express, New York Air, and the CAL scabs from the commuters I worked at.

Minimums for decent regionals was typically over 2000 hrs TT and could be 3000 TT.

Pretty much.

Referencing the post I made prior about going to a "non traditional" school. Many of the people in my classes were guys that already had thousands of hours flying corporate, 135, 121, whatever but no degree. They were there to get it so they could move on to the legacies.

And to circle back to the "life gets in the way" comment. Yep, many of these guys started flying young, worked at the airport as fuelers, other jobs the the FBO, whatever. And they were the guys that would happen to be at the right place/right time, slide into a corp/135 job at 19-20 years old, which leads to a different/better job, leading to a different/better job, whatever. Before they know it, they're late 20's or in their 30's with lots of GREAT experience, they simply didn't go to college.

HAHA I can relate to that. 30yo no degree, 6000tt, 1000TPIC, and white male. I tried hard to get on with the legacies with no joy. Worked at the FBO young, got a break, found a corporate job, and then moved on to the regionals for the 121 time. I'm working on the degree but I am finding it hard to stomach the cost of it all just to do the same job I am doing at the regionals. Maybe it will be worth it. Who knows

Got a regional, then corporate job, in my junior year of college. Spent the next 2.5 yrs in night/summer school grinding out my degree.

Saw a report at the time that college degrees were 93%(?)(almost 100% at the big airlines) of the previous hiring cycle(late 70's/early 80's).

Not getting a degree wasn't an option.

Ha, I would non-rev on my parents benefits to China to buy my college books. They sell over there for $5 - $15, while over here $150 - $250. I thought I might as well take advantage of those foreign subsidies.

Simple to understand why they want a degree.

America is graduating barely-functioning illiterates from HS these days. Parenting (and assoc. skills) has gone down the *****er, too. Today's avg. public educated HS student is nowhere near as well educated and ready for society as one from decades past. Today's kids are trainwrecks. It used to be the exception rather than the norm. That has switched.

And, as usual in life, everyone pays for the bad apples.


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Texas A&M Galveston Professor Hits ?Breaking Point,? Fails Entire Class « CBS Houston

Btw, speaking of degrees...

I'm currently reading Jimmy Doolittle's biography. Did you know?

Not only was he the father of IFR, while he was in the army he applied for and got 2 years leave to go for his master's at MIT. He was so motivated he finished in the 1st year, so he used the 2nd year to earn his Doctorate.

Yes, the 30 Sec. Over Tokyo mission commander was formally entitled Dr. Doolittle.

:D

And sadly, college is becoming the same way. It's not much unlike this, especially the :20 and :30 second parts;

Military folks generally prefer their rank to any academic titles they may hold.

I can say there is some good news, the level of education has increased in our district due to common core stds, at least at the elementary school level. A 2nd grader is getting 2 hours of homework a night. They are required to read, and analyze a story a week, read a book and write a short book report a week, study science, do a science project, and also complete an hr a week each of online reading and math. Also, they get math homework every night as well as spelling and vocab lists every week.

I've seen the subject matter and it seems the dumbing down has stopped. But what parents need to realize is school cannot raise and prepare your kids, that is your job. School helps, but parents need to be extremely involved. The Asian kids do all the school work, after school tutoring, music and sometimes a sport or physical activity. You have to start early with building responsibility and reading, like when they are 2. No TV until at min age 2, and no TV during the week. I think TV ruined the past 2 generations, people are realizing that, but too many parents keep buying and not controlling the PS2 etc. But there is good news out there.

Go do your research before posting...Federal employees hired during that time DO get a pension...

Yeah this GED scholar also got into colleges that you can only dream of...Cornell and Dartmouth...Go take your insecurities somewhere else...Jerko$$

Way to get a joke, Rick! Thank goodness you aren't always so serious no one needs to tell you to lighten up.


http://www.mycitybynight.co.za/wp-co...thumbs-up.jpeg

Well boy, Hawaiian called you for an interview because they knew, once they hired you, you would be theirs. Why, because no legacy would higher your non-degree ass.

Getting into a college is great but proves little, now finishing, which you did not do, that's a different story.

As far as insecurities go, I am just laughing at your stupidity. Pumping your chest for not having any college credits? YHGTBFKM

Have a nice day!

When someone is giving themselves high fives for having no college credits, well someone needs to tell them to close their mouth because they are sending the wrong message.