True Comparison for Pay vs Quality of Life
 

Does anyone know if there's a thread already started for a true comparison of individual results for pay versus quality of life. With many groups in negotiations right now I'm curious to see what people's results are based on their experience with their companies contract. I'm not just looking for the numbers from the contract but how it applied to them throughout the year. Thanks for any help.

I work for a yellow bus company and I keep hearing from guys about how great our quality of life is and how much better we have it than some of the legacy carriers for days off and schedule. Supposedly that is making up for our dismal pay rates compared to others. I have talked to friends that work for Alaska, Delta, and American and find that some of the time I do get more days off than they do but often my pay lags considerably. I'm just curious to find out from you guys what your real life numbers look like to make an accurate comparison of pay vs quality of life so that we can get a contract we deserve and not be an anchor for the rest of the industry comparison. I'm hoping these number can help everyone take a more realistic look at the number instead of just assumptions. Here are my numbers to make the comparison I am looking for:
1) Airline employer
2) Equipment
3) Relative Seniority for base biding (where you averaged your bid throughout the year)
4) How many days you worked
5) How many overnights you had
6) How many hours you blocked
7) Expected gross income

My numbers may be slightly skewed due to one month of only 6 days working and another with only 3 days of work but here's what I have.
1) NK
2) A320
3) ~40% in base 2/3rd year FO rates
4) 153 days worked
5) 87 overnights
6) ~600 block hours
7) 89k

This usually comes up in January every year and some people like the info, others hate it and call it a D measuring contest. So I'll add to it! Numbers include PS and Perdiem.

JB 190 Fo
50% in base, 2nd year rates
About 140 days worked through aggressive use of vacation time.
Plenty of overnights, I commute.
580 block
90k

True Comparison for Pay vs Quality of Life
 

I think that the most objective way to measure this is by taking the sum total of all compensation (wages, bonuses, profit sharing, company retirement contributions, matching funds, company paid portion of insurance premiums, and per diem) and dividing it by total block hours actually flown. Compare that rate with others in similar status, category and longevity.

DELTA

Worked 2 days

$487,000

Greenslip with conflict?

Can't wait to see how much better that number is when you stop flying the MD-88.

Nippon Cargo Airlines
747-8F
Least senior in Domicile (2nd year pay)
~155
~120
~600 hours (not including many DHs)
$123,400 (Not including company contributed 401k of 14%)

) Airline employer-Regional Hell
2) Equipment-E170
3) Relative Seniority for base biding (where you averaged your bid throughout the year)-70th%
4) How many days you worked-210
5) How many overnights you had-170
6) How many hours you blocked-860
7) Expected gross income-$112,000

Virgin America Fo
LAX-reserve, bottom of the list
Year 2 and 3 pay scale
500hrs
86k

VX
A320/319
FO 3rd yr transition 4th yr FO pay
About 58%ish in base
Work about 15/16 days per month, off 15/16 days
About 8-9 overnights per month
918 block hrs for the year
$126k estimate. End of Nov stands $116.2k

January is a weird one. Got 15 days of work, 15 days off, which breaks down as 78 hrs block plus one vacation week (did not sell, have actual vacation week), total credit 109:49. It's a 12k month which is my first ever as FO.

So Pike is a Spirit 2nd-year FO on 3rd-year pay, and per Pike:
He worked 153 days so far with 600 hrs block.
His gross is $89,000
Per block hour flown, he is paid $148/hr.
Per day worked he is paid $582

Shy is a Virgin 3rd-year FO on 4th-year pay and per Shy:
He worked 165-176 days so far with 918 block
His gross is $116,200
Per block hour flown, he is paid $127/hr.
Per day worked he is paid between $660-$704

Interesting comparison. Pike works fewer days, gets more money per Block hour flown, but gets less money per day of work (if Shy's 15-16 days off is accurate). Pike is one year less longevity pay wise. Hmmmm.

Looks like a reserve vs. line comparison to me.

[QUOTE=PikeAV8R;2026010]I work for a yellow bus company and I keep hearing from guys about how great our quality of life is and how much better we have it than some of the legacy carriers for days off and schedule. Supposedly that is making up for our dismal pay rates compared to others. I have talked to friends that work for Alaska, Delta, and American and find that some of the time I do get more days off than they do but often my pay lags considerably. I'm just curious to find out from you guys what your real life numbers look like to make an accurate comparison of pay vs quality of life so that we can get a contract we deserve and not be an anchor for the rest of the industry comparison. I'm hoping these number can help everyone take a more realistic look at the number instead of just assumptions. Here are my numbers to make the comparison I am looking for:
1) Airline employer
2) Equipment
3) Relative Seniority for base biding (where you averaged your bid throughout the year)
4) How many days you worked
5) How many overnights you had
6) How many hours you blocked
7) Expected gross income


1) Southwest - 4th year F/O
2) The only choice - 737
3) 73% domicile seniority
4) 179 days worked
5) 102 nights in a hotel
6) 821 hours -- ouch that hurts
7) Gross Income (Pay, 401K match, Profit sharing, Per Diem) = $225,540
(only assumption is 15% PS which we will find out early 2016; most think it will be AT LEAST 15% this year)

Great money for a 4th year F/O but I definitely flew the hours to earn it. Didn't even realize I flew so many this year until I pulled up the electronic logbook that SWAPA keeps on the union website. :) 2 kids in college -- it ain't cheap!

1. AA
2. A320
3. 10% bottom, 11 yr FO
4. 147 days worked
5. NA
6. 780 hrs
7. $153k, not including 16% contribution or per diem

Need to get some Delta or Alaska guys to post. The guys I know over there are getting more hours of pay and more time off than I am.

Excellent thread. It's good to see real-world numbers.

CX
Type - 777
Seniority - 20% from bottom (2yr FO, 5 years in company)
Days worked ~ 170
Nights away ~ 130
Hours ~ 900 (ouch)
Cash ~ $230,000 (inc 13th month, per diem, 15.5% retirement contribution, about 25k overtime)

Sorry, the 918 hrs is projected year end, whereas the 116.2k is as of November 30th paycheck. So 918 hrs includes the whole month of December flying and the 116.2k does not include the whole month of December pay. Dec was a 91 hr block month for 15 days of work and 16 days off. So the total block end of November is 837 hrs and total 116.2k.

Besides, I'm not sure if the comparison you are making (in terms of pay per block hour) makes sense? I could have bid a reserve schedule, maybe flown 300 hrs for the year, and then come up with an arbitrarily high "pay per block hour flown" figure based on gross earning. Theoretically if one only flies 10 hrs in a year on reserve, and grossed $100k, then I guess you could say this guy made $10,000/hr per block hour flown. But I don't see how that's really helpful in drawing a comparison.

And per Pike's own admittance, "My numbers may be slightly skewed due to one month of only 6 days working and another with only 3 days of work but here's what I have."

You really can't make the comparison between Pike and I due to varying circumstances. I didn't have any time off as unplanned absence. No sick, fatigue, FMLA, etc. It sounds like he had two months of at least some sort of leave. So yes, these numbers are skewed.

My hourly rate is $104/hr and I try and credit 90 hrs per month. If there is no soft time (vacation, training, personal days) then I end up blocking 90 for that month. If there is soft time, then my block is lower so that block + soft time still gets me around 90.
Of course, all of this is by choice. I could leave the min bid to be 70-75 hrs and get 18-19 (sometimes 20) days off per month.


Edit: numbers do not include any 401k numbers. That's separate "earnings" IMO.

ESPIRIT
A-320
Senior F/O (top 10%)
3rd year pay $77.xx
Blocked 750
Gross $106,800 (not including 401k match)
Not sure of nights away but bid mostly day trips.

Mind boggling that SWA guys with around same years of service makes TWICE as Much! Time to raise the bar!

So easy, a chimp could do it :D

This chimp needs his airline to get a new contract ASAP, LOL

Eagle CA
18 Years
21% seniority
121 Days Worked
69 Overnights (commuter bids overnights at home)
$143,000 (+$12,500 bonus, 8% 401k match)
No weekends, no holidays worked
700 hours
Avg. For year $222 hour or $1285 per day. (Hourly rate $104)

United
757/767 FO
9yr Pay
173 days worked
99% Intl. so either a 24 or 48 hour layover for all trips.
$187,300 (includes $6,500 PS)
$29,968 in B&C fund
Total $217,268

1) Airline employer
2) Equipment
3) Relative Seniority for base biding (where you averaged your bid throughout the year)
4) How many days you worked
5) How many overnights you had
6) How many hours you blocked
7) Expected gross income


1) United 9-10 year pay

2) Junior (10 months on reserve for the year) 777 FO

3) 82-92% of the Base

4) 100 or so days of flyng. Reserve is 18 days a month, more or less. Live in domicile. Actual days flying is considerably less. Usually worked 3 trips or less a month, normally two totaling 6-12 days of flying a month. Flew about 60 legs for the year so that's two legs per trip, 30 trips, 2.5 trips a month on average.

5) 65-75 overnights - Eyeballing it, trips are usually 3-4 days, so somewhere between 90-120 days of being gone from home on a trip. Probably around 100 days of work, all but one trip having overnights. 2-3 overnights per trip

6) Block is about 795hrs or so.

7) $222k including profit sharing ($6.6k), per diem etc plus another 16% (about $32.5k) in b-fund contribution, so about $254.5k total compensation.

That is some rolling thunder!

What happened those two days..... forgot to call in sick?

Delta/5yrs
737 FO
50% Seniority in base
140 days worked
100 layovers
Blocked 692 (01JAN-NOV30)
165K (01JAN-NOV30 includes Profit Sharing for '14 and Per Diem)
189K (add the 15% 401k contribution.

I suggest you cut back on the cigarettes....

Sun Country 737 F/O
2nd year, 1 month on new contract pay scale and 1 month on 3rd year pay.
65-70% seniority
69k gross
7300 per diem
4300 employee contribution, 6%
750+/- Block hours, ~ 65 hours/month
110-120 overnights

Pay comparisons can be difficult sometimes especially when you start to think about pay per block hour or per day as a quality-of-life issue. Some guys bid reserve and never work but are still compensated well as a hourly rate. Other guys who work at line bidding operators such as Spirit are able to bid for conflicts. The month with 3 days worked was actually a conflict at the beginning of the month, followed by one week of vacation and training at the end of the month. I didn't work any extra, I went to my training and enjoyed my family time. The month with 6 days was a company mistake where in essence I had a blank schedule. I added one two day and was called for a juniour assignment 4 day. If you can't tell I try to enjoy my time off. I'll work extra when it benefits me but not just for the money. Each of us looks at work differently. To be completely honest my ideal contract would not include as much soft time and trying to bid conflicts and work the system. I would rather be payed well while I was at work and not have to "hope" I can get extra. Some of these factors have to do with our pairings as well. A southwest guy is working more legs per day with a higher average credit per day than I am due to the slightly shorter average leg length and the much more connected route structure. I would rather have 4 days of 7 hours a day at work 3 times a month. That's 12 days of work at a high hourly rate. If I had simply worked my schedule this year I would have made significantly less, probably closer to 70k. There's a lot of factors and everybody wants to look at things differently in terms of what they're looking for as a career aspiration and how hard they want to be worked while on the road. To each their own. It's just interesting to see how the contract numbers actually pay out. My numbers don't include the 9% company match for 401k, but I still feel with what we have we are significantly underpaid as a carrier even assuming quality of life aspects of working here.

AA (US Airways)
E190
3 months of 1st year pay, 9 months of 2nd year pay
40% as an FO, now about 85% as a CA
As a lineholder FO, I averaged 16 days of work per month.
As a reserve CA, I sit reserve 18 days, and flew on average 11 of those.
Block time - 490 hours
Gross pay - $134K
Company 401(k) DC - $21K

Spent about 100 nights in hotels.

You're already an E190 CA?

Yeah, upgrade is only a year. So there was a big spike in my hourly rate for 2nd year, but it kind of flattens out from there. From a monetary standpoint, there's not a lot of reason to be a 190 CA beyond about year 4 or so - at that point it generally makes sense to go back to FO in something bigger.

Jetblue
A320 first officer
6th year FO
Bid ~top 20% in base/seat
Have bypassed upgrade for the last couple years.
Average about 17 days off a month
Very few overnights, mostly turns but I live 2 hrs from JFK, so I stay in the city with family
900 hours (ouch)
Projected $170,000 for the year including profit sharing.... Not a Flica wh0re but worked more then I like this year. (Target 90-95 hrs credit a month, end up with more and some premium here and there) Also includes about 20 hrs pto sell back.

10th year XJT CA ($79.35/hr)
E-145
Junior line-holder (70 percent in base)
Worked 145 days
510 hours block
$91k gross (includes per diem, retirement match and DC)

$178 block hr, $627 a day

On Contract 2004 with pay cuts in 2008

These are with projected numbers thru end of this month

VX
Step 12 CA @ $189/hr A320
Top 2% in base/seat
About 800 hours in 2015
Bid 24+ hr layovers at home, so four 4 day trips per month is really 12 days of work and 4 nights away from home averaging 105 pay hours per month.
W2 is going to come in about 220K for 2015, but that includes our QIP and profit sharing in the mix.

Too bad the long layover at home is going away soon, looks like I will have to actually work next year!

Congrats on making Captain so fast.

-JB
-320 FO
-12 year pay
-Top 5% in seat
-Averaged 17.5 days off a month
-Total block through Dec around 850 hours
-Sold 10 hrs of PTO every month (computed at 1.5x hourly rate)
-Gross Pay will be just over $250K--does not include 401K matching but does include PS

$250k?? Why did we have so many JetBlue guys in the new hire classes before they all became flows and returnees?? Some were even captains. I won't see that kind of money for years and I've already been here 11.

As long as you're not based in PHX things move rapidly. Guy I recommended for hiring just a few years ago is holding a nice line with Christmas off in the A320.

DAL
75/76 FO. 16th year (12 yr. pay)
50% in seat ATL
15-16 days off avg.
Total block 593 hours
No idea on total pay hours. Worked some at 2x pay
$217,490. Incl. perdiem and $18.6K profit sharing from last year.
Doesn't include DC contributions (company+self)of
$44,650
This is as of Nov 30 paycheck.