You're correct. Sorry about the confusion. Did they actaully have someone that was qualified going out and physically touching the aircraft ("critical surfaces"), then getting airborne in 5 minutes? I don't know, I wasn't there.

 

How many passenger jets, other than RJ's, can someone actually touch critical control surfaces by standing on the ground? Seems like they would need a deice truck.

 

I thought that the tactile check was implemented by the FAA for all part 121 ops. So every operator would have to do a tactile check by an approved person before you may takeoff if you have exceeded your hold over time. If no one is available than you must go back and de ice again. If someone is avalaible than they must touch the surface of your aircraft and if they say it is clean you get 5 more minutes. This can continue as long as the aircraft is clear of contamination.

So is everyone else's ops that way?

As for the Delta and CAL flights maybe they were within their hold over times which then would not require a tactile check. As for the company I work at we do not have hold over times for PL so if we take off with it we would have to have a tactile check since no hold over times. I don't even think we are allowed to operate in PL. I will have to look that up.

 

OK, here goes as I understand it (sorry about the long post):
BTW, this is per our de-icing manual. Maybe different for others.

"DO NOT dispatch or takeoff in conditions of moderate or heavy freezing rain,
heavy freezing drizzle, moderate and heavy ice pellets (or when light ice
pellets are mixed with any other precipitation), snow pellets, hail, or other
icing conditions for which no holdover time exists.
END"

HOWEVER, if the LIGHT ice pellets (no listed hold over times) are the only precip, you can go provided you do Type I followed by Type IV, and takeoff within 25 minutes from the START time. If you can't, you HAVE to go back, and do it again.

If there is other precip with the light pellets (snow, freezing rain,etc...) you can NOT do this. NO GO.

As far as the other precip (with NO hold over time), you can't go.

IF your precip conditions end up with a hold over time, you go with that.
IF your hold over time is EXCEEDED, you can do a "Pre-Takeoff Contamination Inspection" (visual) from the flight deck, or if not sure, the cabin. Then IF everything LOOKS good, you have 5 minutes to takeoff.

If not, or not sure, one can have an external check (our manual doesn't say visual or tactile), and if the "qualified person" says it looks "clean", you have 5minutes. If not, de-ice again.


Now, another qusetion: Why can't one be dispatched TO an airport with the above precip? We sat in DTW for a LOOOOONG time (where the sun finally came out) because the dispatcher said he could not "dispatch" because of the WX (not the 1,2,3 rule, but because of the precip). I thought that the "dispatch" only was for TAKEOFF???
It's hard to believe, but I may be mistaken.

 

so, who is a qualified person? I did a season and a haf of de-ice and loved it, only got to do it a few times. Not a lot of iclement winter weather in Memphis. We had "Designated Examiners" (seasoned de-icers) as well as Aircraft Mechanics in vans and cars watching the "carwash" de-ice operation. The mechanics were the one's talking to the flight crews and then relaying instructions to the de-ice trucks. I was the bucket man, intresting view of an airplane.

 

Short Bus Drive, Your book reads like our book. That's why I was questioning CAL and DAL. There was no tactile/touching inspection that I saw in EWR.

 

I don't know if that is actually required? It doesn't say we have to have a "tactical", nor does it say it can be "visual". Just an "external" check.
But I would err to the side of caution, and have a "tactical" check.
BUT, 5 minutes after that? Also, like I said, in LGA, it wasn't just LIGHT ice pellets, but also freezing rain, or snow, snow pellets, etc. during the day.
So as Joey from Friends says, it's a "moo" point.
Now, why the no dispatch TO LGA? Anybody?

 

What if you use the 25 minute allowance for light ice pellets and the precipitation ends shortly after the application of Type IV. Are you still bound to return in 25 minutes, or since the icing condition has ended prior to the 25 minutes, can you proceed?

 

If it has cleared up, go.
That actually happened to one of our crews. Did the de-ice thing, taxiied out, got to runway 04, no precip. They went. Got a call from a union rep that the FAA wasn't happy. They explained the situation, and it was dropped. It kinda like wind for TO or LDG. Go with the current tower report, or "flight visibility" not the ATIS.

 

That's what I would assume but the guidance on "light ice pellets" is vague there. It says you are okay to operate in "light ice pellet" conditions up to 25 minutes from beginning of Type IV application with the 6 restrictions listed in a previous post.

I would assume that if the "light ice pellets" condition ended in 10 minutes, you could be on the ground for an hour because the condition no longer existed, and the 25 minute hard time no longer applies.

Is that how your crew saw and it and that is what happened with your crew?