EWR wx on 2/14
02-16-2007, 04:09 AM
#1
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B767 Capt
Posts: 61
EWR wx on 2/14
I have a question for Continental and Delta guys. The ATIS and the actual weather showed PL till mid afternoon in combinations with SN, FZRA, FZFG, -FZRA, -SN. Our ops manual clearly states we cannot fly in ice pellets or in light ice pellets in combination with any other precip. Everyone was stuck on the ramp but you guys. I sat in the cockpit for hours watching one CAL or DAL plane after another takoff while FedEx, UPS, NWA, AA, Comair, etc sit and eventually cancel. Could you give me some insight? Is your FAA rep more liberal? I thought the freight dogs would go long before you guys.
02-16-2007, 05:12 AM
#3
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B767 Capt
Posts: 61
I saw the CAL guys getting pre takeoff inspections, which doesn't help us for pellets. But what about the DAL planes? It doesn't make sense that we operate under seperate rules for each airline in regards to icing conditions.
02-16-2007, 05:40 AM
#4
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Effective Date:
8/31/06
Cancellation Date:
8/31/07
SUBJ: GUIDANCE AND PROCEDURES FOR DISPATCHING DURING LIGHT ICE
PELLET AND IN HEAVY SNOW CONDITIONS
1. PURPOSE. This notice provides guidance to aviation safety inspectors (ASI) and to all air carrier operators for allowance times in light ice pellet conditions and procedures for dispatch in heavy snow conditions.
2. DISTRIBUTION. This notice is distributed to the division level in the Flight Standards Service in Washington headquarters; to the branch level in the regional Flight Standards divisions; to the Flight Standards District Offices; and to the Regulatory Standards Division at the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center. This notice is also distributed electronically to the division level in the Flight Standards Service in Washington headquarters and to all regional Flight Standards divisions and district offices. This information is also available on the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) employee Web site at http://fsims.avr.faa.gov/fsims/fsims.nsf/ and on the FAA Web site at http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8000/.
3. CANCELLATION. This notice cancels notices N 8000.309, Dispatching During Precipitation Conditions of Ice Pellets, Snow Pellets, or Other Icing Events for Which No Holdover Times Exist, dated 10/05/05; and N 8000.313, Parts 121 and 135 Operations Specification for Deicing/Anti-Icing, Operations in Ice Pellets without Deice/Anti-Ice Fluids, dated 10/21/05.
4. BACKGROUND. In October 2005, the FAA issued Notices 8000.309 and 8000.313 to address dispatching during ice pellet, snow pellet, and other icing conditions for which no holdover times exist. As a result of these notices, industry requested the FAA conduct research to obtain data to support relief for certain icing conditions for which no holdover times exist. That research was conducted during the winter season of 2005-06. The following relief is a result of the data obtained from the research and from further review of existing data. Although the following allowances under the stated precipitation condition are provided, the general requirement that takeoffs not be attempted with any contaminate adhering to the critical surfaces of the aircraft still applies.
5. DISCUSSION.
a. Operations in Light Ice Pellets (Without any other Forms of Precipitation Present).
(1) Tests have shown that ice pellets generally remain in the frozen state when imbedded in Type IV anti-icing fluid and are not absorbed by the fluid in the same manner as other forms of precipitation. Using current guidelines for determining anti-icing fluid failure, the presence of a contaminate not absorbed by the fluid (remaining imbedded) would be an indication that the fluid has failed. Ice pellets imbedded in Type IV fluids are generally not detectable by the human eye during pre-takeoff contamination check procedures. Therefore, a pre-takeoff contamination check in light ice pellet conditions would not be of value and is not required.
(2) The research data has also shown that after proper deicing and anti-icing, the accumulation of light ice pellets in Type IV fluid will still sheer from the aerodynamic surfaces during takeoff. This sheering occurs with rotation speeds consistent with Type IV recommended applications for up to 25 minutes from the start of the Type IV anti-icing fluid application.
(3) Operators with a deicing program approved in accordance with Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 121, section 121.629, will be allowed, in light ice pellet conditions with no other form of precipitation present, up to 25 minutes after the start of the anti-icing fluid application to commence the takeoff with the following restrictions:
(a) The aircraft critical surfaces must be free of contaminates before applying Type IV anti-icing fluid. Or, the aircraft must be properly deiced and free of contaminates before the application of Type IV anti-icing fluid.
(b) An allowance time, of up to 25 minutes, is valid only if the aircraft is anti-iced with undiluted Type IV fluid.
(c) Due to the sheer characteristics of Type IV fluids with ice pellets imbedded in it, the allowance is limited to aircraft with a rotation speed of 100 knots or greater.
(d) If the takeoff is not accomplished within the 25 minutes allowed, the aircraft must be completely deiced and, if freezing precipitation continues, anti-iced again before a subsequent takeoff.
(e) A pre-takeoff contamination check is not required. The allowance time of up to 25 minutes cannot be extended by an internal or external check of the aircraft critical surfaces.
(f) If ice pellet precipitation becomes heavier than light or is mixed with any other form of precipitation, the 25-minute allowance time cannot be used.
8/31/06
Cancellation Date:
8/31/07
SUBJ: GUIDANCE AND PROCEDURES FOR DISPATCHING DURING LIGHT ICE
PELLET AND IN HEAVY SNOW CONDITIONS
1. PURPOSE. This notice provides guidance to aviation safety inspectors (ASI) and to all air carrier operators for allowance times in light ice pellet conditions and procedures for dispatch in heavy snow conditions.
2. DISTRIBUTION. This notice is distributed to the division level in the Flight Standards Service in Washington headquarters; to the branch level in the regional Flight Standards divisions; to the Flight Standards District Offices; and to the Regulatory Standards Division at the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center. This notice is also distributed electronically to the division level in the Flight Standards Service in Washington headquarters and to all regional Flight Standards divisions and district offices. This information is also available on the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) employee Web site at http://fsims.avr.faa.gov/fsims/fsims.nsf/ and on the FAA Web site at http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8000/.
3. CANCELLATION. This notice cancels notices N 8000.309, Dispatching During Precipitation Conditions of Ice Pellets, Snow Pellets, or Other Icing Events for Which No Holdover Times Exist, dated 10/05/05; and N 8000.313, Parts 121 and 135 Operations Specification for Deicing/Anti-Icing, Operations in Ice Pellets without Deice/Anti-Ice Fluids, dated 10/21/05.
4. BACKGROUND. In October 2005, the FAA issued Notices 8000.309 and 8000.313 to address dispatching during ice pellet, snow pellet, and other icing conditions for which no holdover times exist. As a result of these notices, industry requested the FAA conduct research to obtain data to support relief for certain icing conditions for which no holdover times exist. That research was conducted during the winter season of 2005-06. The following relief is a result of the data obtained from the research and from further review of existing data. Although the following allowances under the stated precipitation condition are provided, the general requirement that takeoffs not be attempted with any contaminate adhering to the critical surfaces of the aircraft still applies.
5. DISCUSSION.
a. Operations in Light Ice Pellets (Without any other Forms of Precipitation Present).
(1) Tests have shown that ice pellets generally remain in the frozen state when imbedded in Type IV anti-icing fluid and are not absorbed by the fluid in the same manner as other forms of precipitation. Using current guidelines for determining anti-icing fluid failure, the presence of a contaminate not absorbed by the fluid (remaining imbedded) would be an indication that the fluid has failed. Ice pellets imbedded in Type IV fluids are generally not detectable by the human eye during pre-takeoff contamination check procedures. Therefore, a pre-takeoff contamination check in light ice pellet conditions would not be of value and is not required.
(2) The research data has also shown that after proper deicing and anti-icing, the accumulation of light ice pellets in Type IV fluid will still sheer from the aerodynamic surfaces during takeoff. This sheering occurs with rotation speeds consistent with Type IV recommended applications for up to 25 minutes from the start of the Type IV anti-icing fluid application.
(3) Operators with a deicing program approved in accordance with Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 121, section 121.629, will be allowed, in light ice pellet conditions with no other form of precipitation present, up to 25 minutes after the start of the anti-icing fluid application to commence the takeoff with the following restrictions:
(a) The aircraft critical surfaces must be free of contaminates before applying Type IV anti-icing fluid. Or, the aircraft must be properly deiced and free of contaminates before the application of Type IV anti-icing fluid.
(b) An allowance time, of up to 25 minutes, is valid only if the aircraft is anti-iced with undiluted Type IV fluid.
(c) Due to the sheer characteristics of Type IV fluids with ice pellets imbedded in it, the allowance is limited to aircraft with a rotation speed of 100 knots or greater.
(d) If the takeoff is not accomplished within the 25 minutes allowed, the aircraft must be completely deiced and, if freezing precipitation continues, anti-iced again before a subsequent takeoff.
(e) A pre-takeoff contamination check is not required. The allowance time of up to 25 minutes cannot be extended by an internal or external check of the aircraft critical surfaces.
(f) If ice pellet precipitation becomes heavier than light or is mixed with any other form of precipitation, the 25-minute allowance time cannot be used.
02-16-2007, 05:50 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,575
I did two legs that day in EWR. Not a problem. Type I de-ice then Type IV anti-ice. Pre-takeoff check from "snowflake" (chief pilot in SUV). Off you go. The only delay I had that day was the de-icing itself and I had to wait about 15 minutes for a gate. Even going to EWR I had 1/2 turn in holding and that was the only delay.
02-16-2007, 07:55 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Interesting post. Two quick questions: For the guidance above, do you have separate V speeds during those conditions ? Second, I know the subject of the thread is takeoffs, but with the guidance above I didn't see any mention of minimum braking action with respect to landing and/or rejected takeoffs.
Thx
Thx
02-16-2007, 07:59 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Guppy Capt.
Posts: 1,887
Originally Posted by CALFO
As long as a tactile ice inspection is performed within 5 minutes of takeoff, we can operate in conditions with ice pellets.
You have 25 minutes from START of application, to TO. How is that possible in LGA, EWR, etc...?
ALSO:
"a. Operations in Light Ice Pellets (Without any other Forms of Precipitation Present)."
Along with pellets, there was -FZRN,-SN,-BLSN,etc....., depending on the time of the day (at least in LGA), so how can you do this?
"(f) If ice pellet precipitation becomes heavier than light or is mixed with any other form of precipitation, the 25-minute allowance time cannot be used"
Last edited by Short Bus Drive; 02-16-2007 at 08:05 AM.
02-16-2007, 08:13 AM
#8
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by Shuckers86
I have a question for Continental and Delta guys. The ATIS and the actual weather showed PL till mid afternoon in combinations with SN, FZRA, FZFG, -FZRA, -SN. Our ops manual clearly states we cannot fly in ice pellets or in light ice pellets in combination with any other precip. Everyone was stuck on the ramp but you guys. I sat in the cockpit for hours watching one CAL or DAL plane after another takoff while FedEx, UPS, NWA, AA, Comair, etc sit and eventually cancel. Could you give me some insight? Is your FAA rep more liberal? I thought the freight dogs would go long before you guys.
02-16-2007, 08:16 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 621
Short Bus,
I don't really understand your post. Just a bunch of miscellaneous quotes. If you are quetioning the value of a visual inspection for ice pellets then please reread my previous post that you quoted. This is not a visual inspection, it is a tactile (physical) inspection with a qualified inspection physically touching the outboard wing of the most adversely affected side of the aircraft.
We don't do these at all the outstations, if-fact, I believe it is only performed at the EWR and CLE. We have a lot of metal to move out of both and while a sincere hassle, I imagine that it is well worth the money and time to get the planes off the ground. I've never actually seen it performed, but I suspect that's how planes were getting airborne that day in EWR.
I don't really understand your post. Just a bunch of miscellaneous quotes. If you are quetioning the value of a visual inspection for ice pellets then please reread my previous post that you quoted. This is not a visual inspection, it is a tactile (physical) inspection with a qualified inspection physically touching the outboard wing of the most adversely affected side of the aircraft.
We don't do these at all the outstations, if-fact, I believe it is only performed at the EWR and CLE. We have a lot of metal to move out of both and while a sincere hassle, I imagine that it is well worth the money and time to get the planes off the ground. I've never actually seen it performed, but I suspect that's how planes were getting airborne that day in EWR.
02-16-2007, 10:53 AM
#10
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B767 Capt
Posts: 61
CALFO, I was sitting in an A300 at the north exit (RB) of the FedEx ramp. I watched the preflight inspections of the CAL jets. I never saw anybody get out of the SUV. They drove around the airplanes and then the planes taxied out and took off. The DAL guys didn't even slow down, they just took off. Meanwhile I'm sitting in my plane with a 1/2 inch of ice on my wiper blades after an application of type IV. The ice formed in just a few minutes after we were sprayed. I feel sorry for all you guys with a boatload of folks in the back. I saw a NW 320 and an AA 757 sit for a while then taxi back to the gate. We finally pulled the plug and went to a hotel after a ORD-EWR leg and 9 hours in the airplane.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
