NMB Rules USAPA has enough cards
02-21-2008, 10:54 AM
#21
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
IF USAPA succeeds with a seniority list that places east FOs ahead of west Captains ( DOH, LOS versus relative seniority ) ...
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
How will USAPA force Parker & company to accept the new list ?
Originally Posted by CactusCrew
I just am trying to understand the ultimate goal of USAPA ...
02-21-2008, 11:54 AM
#22
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 78
Catus, the real motivation behind USAPA is nothing more than to get RID of ALPO!!!! and for once have a union that is only concerned with one pilot group and their needs not that of every other major or commuter. That means both sides of the Mississippi not just the East and I think you will find that the West pilots needs/concerns will be addressed by USAPA as well.
02-22-2008, 06:37 PM
#23
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
Spiff has it exactly right. If USAPA wins, the ultimate result will be the END of USAir.
And the thing most "new representation" advocates forget and someone else pointed out, "NO UNION" is one of the options on the ballot. So all USAir has to do is make enough blue sky promises that 50% + 1 suckers vote for "NO UNION".
Been there, seen that in a previous life.
And the thing most "new representation" advocates forget and someone else pointed out, "NO UNION" is one of the options on the ballot. So all USAir has to do is make enough blue sky promises that 50% + 1 suckers vote for "NO UNION".
Been there, seen that in a previous life.
02-23-2008, 02:56 PM
#27
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by A320fumes
I don't think that has ever been the East's goal.
That has been the east's goal from day one. USAPA was formed for expressly that purpose, all rhetoric and moaning about ALPA's failures aside. Don't believe me? Then tell me, how many NMB cards did USAPA have the day before the Nicolau decision? None, zilch, nada. You were perfectly happy to follow the process until it was apparent that your "DOH only" stance wasn't gonna fly. The process became "flawed", the "merger policy not followed", and the arbitrator became "senile" only after you didn't get our way.
Parker has already acknowledged that the Nicholae windfall is his biggest hurdle towards completing this merger. All he can do is enjoy the strife until the windfall is addressed.
Nicolau addressed his reasoning for ordering the list the way he did.
Have you even bothered to read the decision? Nobody's relative seniority changed. The only windfall in the room is the one you want to gain off the backs of the west pilots.
As for strife, you reap what you sow.
That has been the east's goal from day one. USAPA was formed for expressly that purpose, all rhetoric and moaning about ALPA's failures aside. Don't believe me? Then tell me, how many NMB cards did USAPA have the day before the Nicolau decision? None, zilch, nada. You were perfectly happy to follow the process until it was apparent that your "DOH only" stance wasn't gonna fly. The process became "flawed", the "merger policy not followed", and the arbitrator became "senile" only after you didn't get our way.
Parker has already acknowledged that the Nicholae windfall is his biggest hurdle towards completing this merger. All he can do is enjoy the strife until the windfall is addressed.
Nicolau addressed his reasoning for ordering the list the way he did.
Have you even bothered to read the decision? Nobody's relative seniority changed. The only windfall in the room is the one you want to gain off the backs of the west pilots.
As for strife, you reap what you sow.
02-23-2008, 03:08 PM
#28
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by War Eagle 83
Catus, the real motivation behind USAPA is nothing more than to get RID of ALPO!!!! and for once have a union that is only concerned with one pilot group and their needs not that of every other major or commuter. That means both sides of the Mississippi not just the East and I think you will find that the West pilots needs/concerns will be addressed by USAPA as well.
The only motivation behind USAPA is to get around a federal arbitration decision.
USAPA didn't even exist until Nicolau rendered his decision. You would think that for all the many, manifold failures of ALPA over the years you would have tried this before, if you felt so ill-represented.
But you didn't.
The only thing that drives USAPA is the idea that you can undo Nicolau by disenfranchising the west and voting in a contract that will effectively gut the list.
Everything else about "representation failures", "ALPA screwing us", "flawed processes", etc. are just BS and rhetorical smokescreens for what is really the problem.
You didn't get your way.
02-23-2008, 07:44 PM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 78
Why don't you go read USAPAs web site and watch all the videos and learn all you can before you post your flamebait? Then you can truly make an informed post. The fact is ALPA sees both AAA and AWA as complete nothings, except for the dues money, and has done both groups wrong over the years. Nic is just the straw that broke the camels back for us ,after all ,we the pilots of the East gave up and are giving up over $600,000,000.00/YEAR under LOA93 which allowed this "Merger" to happen. Seniority Does Matter. Just ask the NWA pilots now that ALPA "Merger" policy is about to be shoved down their collective throats. You'll probably see the NWAPA formed real soon and ALPO will lose another carrier. They will just do it before arbitration since they have now seen the precident set by ALPA and its merger policy.
Last edited by War Eagle 83; 02-23-2008 at 07:52 PM.
02-24-2008, 08:41 PM
#30
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by War Eagle 83
Why don't you go read USAPAs web site and watch all the videos and learn all you can before you post your flamebait?
Flamebait, huh.
You refuted absolutely nothing I posted, offered no alternative information, and can't provide a bit of conflicting information, yet I'm posting "flamebait".
Then you can truly make an informed post.
I have.
Unfortunately, I guess it doesn't fit into your preconceived notion of reality, so it can't be true, right?
after all ,we the pilots of the East gave up and are giving up over $600,000,000.00/YEAR under LOA93 which allowed this "Merger" to happen.
Nope.
What allowed this merger to happen was the abysmal performance of your company since exiting bankruptcy, your pending third bankruptcy, and likely liquidation.
Next you'll be telling me that all the profits are being made in the east and that they are propping up a "money losing west operation. Before you do that, you might want to peruse the last SEC filing prior to integration. Just to keep down the "flamebait", you know.
All your sacrifices did is enable your management to walk away with much of your money.
Seniority Does Matter.
Absolutely.
Unfortunately, you and your ilk continue to confuse LOS with seniority.
LOS is just a currency. It buys you a place on the list contiguous to others with a like amount of currency.
Prior to the merger, a 15 year LOS bought you a junior co-pilot seat at the bottom of the US Air seniority list.
On the merged list, guess what; it bought you the same thing.
Your money (LOS) isn't worth the numbers involved, it's only worth what it will buy.
You got fair value for yours.
Just ask the NWA pilots now that ALPA "Merger" policy is about to be shoved down their collective throats. You'll probably see the NWAPA formed real soon and ALPO will lose another carrier.
You're dreaming.
And,btw, ALPA merger policy wasn't shoved down your throat.
You entered into the process willingly, and only found fault with it when you didn't get the DOH staple you wanted.
They will just do it before arbitration since they have now seen the precident set by ALPA and its merger policy.
You do know that arbitration decisions aren't based on precedent, right?
If they do agree to an integrated list, it will be because they negotiated for one. (Something your side had a hard time doing)
If they do submit to arbitration, I bet they will do so full in the knowledge that the process is final and binding, and that their respective notions of what is "fair and equitable" may be somewhat skewed by bias, and that the only idea of "fair and equitable" that counts is the arbitration panel's. (Something your side conveniently forgets)
Flamebait, huh.
You refuted absolutely nothing I posted, offered no alternative information, and can't provide a bit of conflicting information, yet I'm posting "flamebait".
Then you can truly make an informed post.
I have.
Unfortunately, I guess it doesn't fit into your preconceived notion of reality, so it can't be true, right?
after all ,we the pilots of the East gave up and are giving up over $600,000,000.00/YEAR under LOA93 which allowed this "Merger" to happen.
Nope.
What allowed this merger to happen was the abysmal performance of your company since exiting bankruptcy, your pending third bankruptcy, and likely liquidation.
Next you'll be telling me that all the profits are being made in the east and that they are propping up a "money losing west operation. Before you do that, you might want to peruse the last SEC filing prior to integration. Just to keep down the "flamebait", you know.
All your sacrifices did is enable your management to walk away with much of your money.
Seniority Does Matter.
Absolutely.
Unfortunately, you and your ilk continue to confuse LOS with seniority.
LOS is just a currency. It buys you a place on the list contiguous to others with a like amount of currency.
Prior to the merger, a 15 year LOS bought you a junior co-pilot seat at the bottom of the US Air seniority list.
On the merged list, guess what; it bought you the same thing.
Your money (LOS) isn't worth the numbers involved, it's only worth what it will buy.
You got fair value for yours.
Just ask the NWA pilots now that ALPA "Merger" policy is about to be shoved down their collective throats. You'll probably see the NWAPA formed real soon and ALPO will lose another carrier.
You're dreaming.
And,btw, ALPA merger policy wasn't shoved down your throat.
You entered into the process willingly, and only found fault with it when you didn't get the DOH staple you wanted.
They will just do it before arbitration since they have now seen the precident set by ALPA and its merger policy.
You do know that arbitration decisions aren't based on precedent, right?
If they do agree to an integrated list, it will be because they negotiated for one. (Something your side had a hard time doing)
If they do submit to arbitration, I bet they will do so full in the knowledge that the process is final and binding, and that their respective notions of what is "fair and equitable" may be somewhat skewed by bias, and that the only idea of "fair and equitable" that counts is the arbitration panel's. (Something your side conveniently forgets)
“If USAPA becomes the new union, by default the Nicolau Award goes into effect almost immediately.” This is completely false. This one seems to stem from a total misunderstanding of the Railway Labor Act. The rambling discussions of how many pilots will defect from the East to comprise a majority are, literally, the invention of the ignorant. The facts:
- Upon certification of USAPA, Nicolau is rendered moot. It doesn’t have to be changed, renegotiated, fenced, modified, etc etc. It’s moot. Negotiations will start with a DOH list, combined with Conditions and Restrictions to protect (primarily) the West pilots. The Award will sit in the Library of Congress; a piece of paper gathering dust, a testament to failed representation.
- The Interim USAPA Reps will be “fresh out of the box,” ready to do good work for the pilots. This laughable theory requires you to believe they, backed by the 9 out of 10 East pilots who put USAPA in office, suddenly, on day one, decide to resurrect a dead, moot award, and use that as a starting point. (This is analogous to thinking they will use the Mesa contract as a starting point.)
- The Nicolau award violates the USAPA Constitution, and therefore cannot be presented, even if a majority of the interim Reps, for reasons only the authors of this bizarre theory can explain, lost their minds.
- Finally, the CCT (“Concerned Conspiracy Theorists”) forgot something; 1,780 dues protesters - they don’t vote. Oops, another wild theory shot to pieces. Don’t ya just hate that?
(Nicolau is the list, whether you like it or not. There won't be a do over.)
Nothing but delusional ramblings of a group of children that didn't get their way.
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