Delta-Northwest Merger in 'Jeopardy'?
 

Interesting article.

Later in the article, this...

DAL is the aquiring carrier yet we go to the bottom of the list? Yea right.

I don't think the threat of unhappy pilots will stop management when they get a whiff of that 20 billion.

You'd be suprised at the screw jobs that has "pass muster" over the years from mergers.

I Just read the whole article. Google it. Aren't these senior pilot negotiotors probably the same guys that people say would be bought out in the merger. DAL has probably hired between 500-700 pilots since 2007. That would make the "thousands to the bottom" guys pre 9-11 hires by years. NWA was hiring at that time also and continues today. Why should their equivelent hires get seniority over DAL's. NWA pilots would already be receiving DAL's better base pay, retirement plan kickers and access to bigger equipment (ie pay) because of their relative seniority since DAL is putting new hires into 76-ER's. Sounds like these guys are shooting for the moon. The article mentioned "a pay raise for some" which I imagine is either the NWA guys onto the DAL payscale or a raise for senior DAL guys trying to split the union group so enough DAL guys will support. I am at the very bottom so that is where I will stay but I do not want to see my friends (and guys I don't know) who have been at DAL for 7-10 years get staples behind a guy who has been at NWA for less time.

Obviously we are reacting to a news story and this is exactly the reason ALPA wants this keep quiet while they work through a difficult negotiation. Bottom line is that I'm trusting my Reps to do the right thing. However, the attitudes from some who have written on this board surprise me.

NWA pilots are saying Delta pilots have a sense of entitlement and feel like they are "owed a job."

Truth is, yes, I have a job, a good job that I like. I'm just hoping to keep my current position and domicile in this merger.

Lets see, NWA is parking aircraft and wants:

AA bought TWA, stapled 60% of the list, then parked AA's Fokkers and 727's. TWA's 757 pilots, including some Captains, went to the street. I can see management refusing to go along with NWA's plan just due to the resulting displacement bids as the DC-9 flying is outsourced to Compass and Mesaba with "NO" (to quote Steenland) restriction.

I would like to see this flying performed by pilots on the combined seniority list and have asked about scope changes. How the permitted aircraft conflicts will be resolved? Replies from both sides that Section 1 is not being re-opened.

Obviously merging into the World's Largest Airline is complex and has threats that need to be carefully considered. I'm very pleased that the Captains at the table are keeping this thing chocked and not getting rushed for departure.

The best kind of status quo is status quo. We can realize all the benefits of a merger through code share and strategic partnerships.

Lets go beat the competition the old fashioned way, with better execution, service and efficiency.

Don't forget this article is written by a person that thinks seniority equals age. Who has no idea about the complexities concerning pilot seniority and integration. Is getting their information from the cocktail waitresses cousin who happened to over hear what two NWA pilots said at a strip club in Anchorage.

jdt30 -

Maybe. Maybe not. ALPA has kept a very tight lid on this - so who knows what the source is?

I wish you guys the best of luck both, NWA and DAL. I'll be going through the same crap shortly after your merger announcement.

Acquiring? I don't think so. This is a merger of equals. By all accounts it will be a stock swap deal. No acquiring going on here.

Wholly crap guys...there are a lot of assumptions taken from this article.

Someone just said that DAL has hired at least 700 in the last year right? NWA has hired what maybe 300? Do you think maybe the NWA guys are just looking to protect the 400 guys above the recent new hires who have 10 years senority from being stapled below some people who don't even have a year in yet?

I don't care who you work for, but I don't see how you can blame them one bit. No one can tell me that they wouldn't want the same thing if they were in that same position. True mergers are rarely "fair" (whatever that means to you), but you can't tell me that would even be remotely "fair". Besides, this will get ugly as the unions fight to protect their own, just like they are suppose to.

So NWA negotiators want their pensions, 15% raises, DAL work rules, and the junior DAL guys shafted. They think a DAL guy should get no pension, tiny pay raise, same work rules, and the junior guys should take the hit in the integration. I'm glad to see this is "hanging" up because that hardly seems like an equal part of the deal. I think they should keep their pensions and get a larger pay raise than us to bring them up to our rates. The integration needs to be fair to every Delta pilot including the 30 who started class on Monday.

Outrageous demand?
 

That could also backfire. Delta pilots have been known to dump pensions.
If true at all, it's probably a "throw-away" demand -- designed to be traded off for something better, like a lump sum buyout. Pilot negotiators should take all the time they need in forming the list, and not yield to management pressure for a quick deal. Mistakes here would be very hard to correct.

As always the new pilots today want it RIGHT NOW!! 2yr upgrades, 767ERs, even 777. What happened to SO position for 10 yrs then FO. I would have been happy to fly a DC-9 27 yrs ago when I was a new hire.!!

OK, and to be devils advocate...why just every Delta pilot? :D

Frontier - the job paid a lot differently back then. My father made the equivalent of $225,000 a year in 2007 dollars flying the right seat of a DC8 for a bankrupt cargo operation.

FedEx & UPS pay has not incresed, it has simply kept pace with inflation.

I would be happy to fly the panel the rest of my career for an inflation adjusted quarter of a million annually. I'm not blaming the "old" pilots for the pay cut, but hey, most of them made a lot more money for the same work seems they could understand the need to get as far up the pay scale as possible in the least amount of time.

I should have said every pilot, sorry.

Northwest pilots do not have a pension. They only have a 401k.

Last I checked Delta doesn't have any airplanes that require an SO. When you were hired back in the 70's did the old guys say, "I would have been happy to fly the DC-3 when I was a newhire!!"

They have a frozen pension that I believe will give them about 50 FAE. Not quite sure about the specifics, but they do have a frozen pension. Any new guys just get the defined contribution stuff.

True...for all we know, management leaked this story to further divide our pilot groups....when we should be uniting to improve both of our positions!!!

Let's do better than the East/West mess...

Caution - THIS POST IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE ONLY - and may not even provide any entertainment.

and just to fight fire with fire...

The NWA pilots have posted they should get the top 400, or 500, spots because of their 747-400's being bigger than Delta's aircraft. True, ALPA merger policy by paycheck and equipment type supports the NWA claim.

But, if that is true, what does it mean for the A319/320 and DC-9 pilots who's aircraft are smaller than the Delta MD88/90? Those pilots stapled? Either version does not seem "fair" to me.

Here's my version of fair (although no one asked, or is listening, just an opinion).

1. Use some equity money to buy a number of pilots into retirement (roughly the number of pilots getting displaced by the retirement of the DC-9)
2. Merge the company by some sort of ratio that best aligns with current bid & DOH.
3. Put firm fences around bases and equipment types lasting until large numbers of retirements happen
4. Bring the wholly owned subsidiaries on board, stapled below you and me, by DOH at their respective carriers, allowing them to keep their longevity for benefits.
5. Re-write scope to force Delta/NWA to only outsource additional jets to pilots onTHEseniority list.

What do you think? The most important part of that plan in my view is to get the permitted aircraft type operators on the property and on the list. Management's plan to outsource much of NWA's narrowbody flying (we have the same at Delta) should not come at the expense of the pilots any more. It is getting to the point where everything smaller than a 757 is a consideration for outsourcing - it would be good to start that trend the other direction.

Inflation adjusted, most DAL ER second year guys would probably be happy to sit the panel for the pay you were getting in 1980 and the pension that was supposed to be waiting for you at 60...

Yes this article was pretty whacked, although it likely is true. FWIW "thousands" means more than one, so lets say 2,000. Counting new hires that takes Delta back to October 1998 and staples them.

Not going to happen.

I don't disagree with buying people into retirement, but the last I heard, even though some airframes are being parked, people are not being displaced. The increase in utilization of the remaining fleet is keeping the staffing levels as is, actually, why have new hires been placed into the DC9 then? That would be an increase in the staffing level to some degree wouldn't it? Yes, some flying has been shifted to the regional carriers already, and I'm sure more will in the future. But that same case could be made for the 80's at DAL.

Don't fret. the 10 year SO life style is still alive and well, at NWA, and I want no part of it.:D

Sounds great to me!

My thoughts exactly. That would mean an 88 captain would be stapled below a -9 FO. This is noise from people who are trying to influence the decision making process for their own ulterior motives. Until you hear something "official" from the union, it's just noise. Kinda sounds like the adults in "Charlie Brown's Christmas."

Like I said in a different Post, NO MERGER IS A GOOD MERGER for the work groups. Somebody on the list will be unhappy. Just hope that you all get to keep your jobs and no Furloughs. Good Luck.

Let me start by saying I am not and expert on this, but here goes.

NWA pilots have a frozen pension, that part is correct. The rest is not. In BK the NWA plan was frozen. That means no more money goes in. And when you retire you will get what you had in there the day it was frozen. They then went to a DC plan for all pilots after BK.

Before BK it was 60 FAE. After BK it was lowered to 50 FAE. But now the hard part. With the new DC plan if you have >50 FAE already (expected $ from frozen pension). You get no $ from the new DC plan. Pilots with <50 FAE will get some $. And that varies with so many factors it is impossible to explain. But they tried to get as many pilots as close to 50 FAE as possible.

As for me, I will get $126./mo. in 20 years from my frozen pension. And as of now it looks like 37 FAE from my DC. (Not very good)

I'm not sure about this but it what I have been told. The Delta pilots pension was terminated. So they lost most of it. But they will get money from the PGC or whatever it is called. And they also got $650M note from Delta to make up some of the loss. What that works out to I don't know.

So the way I see it is the NWA and Delta pension issue is pretty much a wash.
IM

Merger deals are made by Top management who only cares about how much money goes into their pockets. Unless NWA and DAL has strong Union reps who know what they are doing, junior pilots at both ends will be, as usual, left out holding the bag. They will be stapled to the end and how it is done will be determined not in their best interest but whatever suits the company management and in the interest of the few senior wide body international CAs.

I think they are asking for DOH. I'm sure they are not trying to staple anyone. NWA pilots konw that EVERYONE has to be happy or NO ONE wins!!!

We are still reeling from the merger in 1986.

How can a seniority merger keep everyone HAPPY? I don't think that is possible.

Have they learned nothing from the US Airways debacle?

Don't I know it. I lived thru the TWA/AA debacle in '01, and I'm still furloughed.

Trust me, DL/NW will NEVER top that one! All you guys will be okay.

won't that screw senior delta pilots (they're younger) and NWA junior pilots who are looking at a lot more retirements than their delta counter parts.

I think so. LEt's just part and remain friends..... :)

the only successful mergers are the ones where nobody's happy! ;)

That said, best of luck to all concerned. I have a lot of friends at both airlines.

If the negotiators are trying to put "thousands" of young Delta pilots at the bottom of the list, it sounds like they think that NWA pilots have to be happy and that the young Delta pilots don't matter in this deal. The only way to do it fairly is to do it via relative seat position. If I'm 80% on a small narrowbody airplane now, I should be in the same relative position after the merger. If that puts me ahead of a NWA guy that was hired before me and he keeps his relative seat position, it's still fair because we are relatively in the same spot. If relative movement up the seniority list has been faster at Delta, then that should be reflected in the integration.

if CAL had merged with delta last year (hypothetical) when they were putting new hires in the 777 should they be of relative seniority to delta 777 fo's. the size of airplane that someone flys isn't always an indicator or their seniority.

what about the first class of new hires? where should they fall in line. deltas was in jan/feb while nwa's was sept/oct. do they have the same expectations and be put about the same seniority? what about the expected retirements between the 2. nwa was expected to retire a bunch before 65 compaired to delta.

delta has some a/c orders while nwa is parking some but getting the 787 in august08/feb09/whenever they get done.