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Old 03-20-2008, 04:11 AM   #271  
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I saw it too. I agree there were some errors. I also saw DAL's.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:19 AM   #272  
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Originally Posted by newKnow View Post

Where exactly is this "pot" of money it is taking to get the deal done? Let's not forget that the intiial haggling witht this merger was who was buying who and who would keep who's name, hedquarters, ect.

The fact and let me capitalize that...FACT of the matter is that NWA brings waaaay more money to the deal than Delta does. I'm sorry to say, but your union has done a poor job of informing you of the situation.

My "grasping at straws" is backed up by 83 pages of color powerpoint presentation that my union has provided for the possible NWA/DAL deal along with 81 pages of the same type of presentation for CAL/UAL.

My information tells me that out of all the legacy airlines DAL has the least amount of cash on hand (pg. 71) and that as a percentage of your monthly expenses vs. cash on hand, you are at the very bottom of the list, behind Air Tran, Southwest, United Continental, Us Air, American, AS?, Northwest, and Jet Blue, in that order. (pg. 72)

So I guess the "straws" that I am grasping at might be telling me that maybe NWA is paying for your payraise rather than the other way around.

But, your whole attitude of "doing us a favor" to get us up to your pay rates says a lot. How would that position play when negotiating a K (contract) to get rid of the B scale? As I have said, it's not your money to give.

As far as your comment on the DC plan, I have no idea what you are talking about, so I won't even try to comment.

As far as your question about me taking a fair deal on integration at the old pay rates? In a heart beat. Are you saying I should sell my seniority?

I never said I consider 12 hour legs to be premium. Since you seem to have seen all of my post, you should have noticed that I was only pointing out a possible position that our negotiators might have had. (I will give my opinion about that in my next post, but after some thought, think they were right to do so.)

Finially, you say there has been no mention of a revision to the agreed upon terms because your MEC hasn't told you jack!!! That fluff that Mowak sent out to you guys gave no specifics and every last one of you bought it like a bunch of High School cheerleaders and began jumping up and down waving you pom poms screaming "Go Delta!"

Conversely, the NWA MEC put out a rather dry, but fact-of-the-matter letter that gave specifics on what was offered (dynamic seniority list), what the factors involved were (ratios, premium flying, a/c orders), and the fact that the changing environment has caused management to hedge on their offer of no furloughs and some of the economic stuff (or as you put it, a revision of the agreed upon terms). But, I forgot that's "simply a distraction" to you.

I will continue this on my next post, but in my observations of you guys, I have seen that many of you are a little too exciteable, quick to jump the gun without careful thought and you don't read. (yes, it's flame, but true)

If I'm wrong, then one of you please tell me what is so horrible about the offer that was spelled out in the NWA MEC letter. (Because you sure have no idea what offer is out there from the letter your MEC sent out)

As I said earlier, I think I know why they came up with the concept of premium international flying (I'll explain in my next post). But other than that, what do you object to?

I gurantee you though, I will have to spend my next 10 posts (at least) explaining that that is not what the letter said.

New K Now

Bottom line is that all of us would like to believe that our respective MEC's are looking out for our best interests. However, all one has to do is look at history to see that the NWA side has always looked out for the senior guys and screwed the junior guys. Just look at your retirement situation, you guys took it in the shorts on payrates and retirement so your senior guys could have their cake and eat it too.

Now look at the Delta MEC. We all gave up the retirement, yes we lost alot of senior guys prior to CH11, however, everyone lost it from the top to the bottom. Now look at our DC and 401k plan, equal for everyone across the board. Our claim and note yielded me, a 2000 hire, $165,000. I had 3 years on furlough and about 4 years active service with the company. The Delta MEC has a history of treating everyone FAIRLY -the NWA MEC DOES NOT!

Ask your MEC how the equity was to be distibuted, our guys wanted it distributed equally among all pilots. Your guys wanted it split by seniority, big surprise there.

I understand you want to believe your MEC as we do at Delta, the difference is our group has a history of fairness to the entire list...YOURS DOES NOT! All one has to do is look at their statement with reagard to having more premium flying than Delta to realize that the NWA MEC is just trying to blow smoke up your collective pie disrespect intended and it would be nice if this went away. However, I think we are all missing out on an opportunity for the future....
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:24 AM   #273  
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Interesting that everyone is here arguing a merger that is not going to happen based on today's numbers. This merger was initially evaluated when oil was 25% cheaper than it is now. Management has to completely re-plan. The money for a pilot agreement is off the table. The pilots did not reach an agreement, opportunity gone, that is business.

If management decides a merger is a good idea at these prices, we do not know if we will ever be in the position that the Delta MEC got for the pilots to participate up front. Again, that opportunity is likely gone.

Now to the SLI. What I'm hearing is that NWA proposed a SLI solution they did not fully evaluate. When the DAL team ran the numbers "dynamic seniority" actually was thought to harm the junior NWA pilots and benefit the DAL pilots. When the numbers got back to the NWA leadership, they balked at their own proposal.

Making an offer which you do not fully understand indicates a lack of preparation and judgement IMHO.

Also, fences for just the "premium flying" sounds like a nod to Red Book / Green Book ways of doing business.

Delta needed a fleet it could use to fill an approximately four year gap and get a first mover advantage on some international growth. However, there might be better ways to get more efficient and capable aircraft. A large order for 777-200LR aircraft was supposed to accompany this merger. Delta may just get those anyway. So far they are very profitable and fund the payments on their acquisition.

Any of us can run the numbers and see that based on range and the capacity needed the 777-200LR's are a terrific fit for what Delta wants to do. It will be interesting to see if they can pull of NYC - Sydney. That's a pretty tall order!

Last edited by Bucking Bar; 03-20-2008 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:21 PM   #274  
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You are very correct. Those numbers were run by us, and it was taken off the table when they saw what it did.
A lot will happen in the next few month. I am sure the remainder of 08 will be bumpy.
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Old 03-21-2008, 04:57 AM   #275  
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Talked with one of the fleet managers yesterday about the future plans with the merger now officially off. The 777 LR is going to be the aircraft for Delta in the nearterm without the merger. There is nothing else available with that range and payload. Delta likes the 787-9 however they will not be available until 2011 it now looks like. The 787-8 does not have the range for the markets they are looking at. Another LR is arriving this Friday then there is a break in deliveries then we start getting one a month in the fall to bring the fleet up to 16. They have options and positions to bring the fleet up to about 32 in the next 30 months. When they start placing more 777 bids out for NYC this summer it looks like Captain on the aircraft could go to 88 or 89 hires and copilot to 07 hires. The 767ER's will be getting winglets soon. 30 Kits have been ordered with more to come however the certification is not going as fast as liked. We need them on the over 12 hour flights. Thats the good news side. Bad news is MD-90's from China are not coming. The fleet reduction annouced as 15-20 aircraft is very fluid. 7 of those aircraft could be the remaining 767-400's flying domestic however they will be retired from domestic service and moved to international. The remaining aircraft are Md-88's and 757's with bad leases that are up this summer. Some may stay if the leases can be renewed at competitive rates. Bottom line we will see 14 aircraft leave the fleet max to as few as 5. The 737-700 deliveries will come as planned for the first 10. Options on the second 10 are up in the air. Thinks we might take 5 but won't get all 10. Hiring will continue as planned through May. Then they will take a break for the summer and put the instructors on the line. Hiring will resume in the fall. All of the above information is based on fuel at current prices levels. If it continues up then it can all change overnight!!!!!
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:42 AM   #276  
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Default Wall Street

Here is the latest from Wall Street:

Transportation Return to Article
Did High Fuel Costs Nix Airline Deals?
Ted Reed
03/21/08 - 06:59 AM EDT
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- In the end, if this is the end, rising fuel costs may have ultimately halted merger talks between Delta DAL and Northwest NWA.

In a letter this week to members of the Northwest chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association, union leaders said rising fuel costs increased their belief that they acted wisely in rejecting a case for seniority integration proposed by Delta pilot negotiators, since that case had been buttressed by growth expectations.

"Oil at $113 a barrel puts things into sharper perspective," the Northwest leaders wrote, not mentioning Delta by name. "What if the other management's aggressive business plan isn't workable at oil above $110? Will they even take delivery of the many aircraft on option, especially the less fuel-efficient ones?"

Meanwhile, at the JPMorgan transportation conference Tuesday, Delta President and CFO Ed Bastian unveiled a plan to reduce Delta's fleet by up to 45 aircraft and also to lay off at least 2,000 workers. Delta became the first mover on layoffs, even as it had been seen as the first mover on consolidation. "In this industry, as in most industries, speed and agility win," Bastian said.

Regarding the Delta move, aviation consultant Robert Mann says that "when carriers take proactive measures that are this aggressive, it becomes clear that they are actively moving on" from seeking a merger. "It looks like everybody's engaged in plan B, which is self-help," Mann added. "In the absence of a collective plan, you do what you need to do independently."

In an unprecedented arrangement, Delta pilots had been empowered by management to seek a pilot agreement before the airline committed to a merger. Although Delta and Northwest pilots managed to negotiate a tentative joint contract in record time, they were stymied in their efforts to concur on seniority integration.

Integration becomes far easier as airlines add new planes. Growth can make captains of first officers and widebody captains of narrowbody captains. But in their letter, the Northwest pilot leaders asked: "Do we base a seniority list which will affect NWA pilots for the next 30 years on an aggressive business plan and aircraft options over the next few years which may never be implemented?"

To be sure, consolidation is not entirely dead. Hedge funds are pressing the case for mergers without pilot consent, the Northwest pilot leaders wrote. They advised against that course, and suggested that arbitration could be used to resolve the seniority issues. "While not perfect, with the right economic incentive, this approach could get the job done," they wrote.

But Lee Moak, the powerful chairman of the Delta ALPA who crafted the arrangement to involve pilots in the dealmaking, considers arbitration to be unacceptable. (Delta pilots could be hurt in arbitration, because many of them are junior to Northwest pilots.) Moak, in a letter to his members, said pilots could not reach a seniority deal, but noted that if Delta continues to pursue a merger, pilots should remain involved.

At the JPMorgan conference, Scott Kirby, president of US Airways LCC, offered a mixed message on the possibility that acquisition efforts have ended.

"It appears consolidation is dead, perhaps," Kirby said, in discussing US Airways' perceived lack of involvement in merger talks. But "given what's happened in the last few weeks, [it] arguably increases the chance that we participate in consolidation if it does happen," he added.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:22 AM   #277  
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I am waiting to see what the CEO's and COO's say if oil keeps increasing.

Remember what Delta's CEO said when US tried to buy Delta? He said that mergers were bad business and would cost consumers.

Let's see how long it takes for them to start spouting off that it will be necessary to merge or the company with go CH11 when oil hits 120.

Everytime a company needs some leeway or contract negotiations become due it becomes urgent that some new course gets charted or dire consequences. And the pilots cave.
Really, is the company going out of business tomorrow? If a business is running that shoddily then maybe it deserves to go CH7.

Don't let them do this to you.

I can't race to the bottom again because I'm already 2 floors under the basement.

Last edited by pilotss; 03-21-2008 at 11:27 AM.
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