Hey, Delta pilots. Quick question.
 

Delta Gentlemen and Women,

I hate to interrupt the party, but maybe not today or tomorrow, but sometime within the week, could you ask your reps what both sides last position was for the SLI?

Before you ask, remember what you thought the Northwest position was and what you think Deltas position was. Remember also that all you guys wanted was a fair relative seniority integration based on where we fall on the current seniority list. You also thought that NWA wanted to staple you to the bottom and that our side was demanding date of hire.

What I'm hearing now and what I've been hearing is that is not what your MEC was pushing.

So, what if your side was pushing for someone at 50% on the NWA list to fall to somewhere like 60% on the combined list? As in an '88 hire being junior to a '97 or '98 hire. Would that have been ok with you and what would you have expected our MEC to do?

All I'm asking you to do is find out. Thanks.

Respectfully,

New K Now

Will do. The last time I inquired about this the answer was DALPA's last position had everyone with .5% of their pre merger seniority and negotiators were perplexed as to the opposition.

Delta's last position had every pilot's relative seniority within 1/2% of their present relative seniority. That wasn't good enough, I guesss.

BTW, there's a lot of talk about NWA guys getting thrown under the bus. You guys need to consider the possibility that you were thrown under the bus by the senior guys within your own MEC (again). Those are the guys for whom relative seniority apparently wasn't good enough. I look forward to getting a look at what their last table position was. If you consider it unreasonable, you need to recall them.

Delta's position is well known. Straight down the line relative seniority.
Everybody kept their position on a percentage basis. The guy at 50% on the NWA list would be at 50% on the combined list.

Delta position was in print from the MEC chairman and posted here. It was a relative seniority position list. The opener not the final list had every pilot with 1/2 percent of his pre merger seniority. There were two extremes most rational people would have considered for openers. A ratio and DOH. Delta went with the ratio. NWA went with something from another universe. This is the rumor and my rep told me it was very close to factual. The first 1000 slots for NWA. 30 Delta pilots integrated by ratio into the next 1000 slots. A ratio after that with almost 2000 Delta pilots ending up on the bottom. I noticed in the NWA chairmans letter he made no attempt to explain his ratio system. The DALPA chairman did. Perhaps he did not want to address it because he knows he could not defend it.

Which is a non starter, just as date of hire would be a non starter for DAL. With the huge number of NWA pilot nearing retirement, relative seniority is a windfall to DAL pilots and harms NWA pilots. This is true whether they retire at 60 or 65.

Is arbitration now acceptable for DALALPA?

How exactly is/was relative seniority a windfall for dal? DOH would actually benefit me personally but I didn't think it was fair so I supported DALPA's position. Going to arbitration is lazy and is an abrogation of leadership. We can still get together and all benefit from the new carrier's strength. There is still time to get a joint contract and SLI before the deal is done. Your MEC seems to want to continue down its destructive path however. Get in the life boat and stop arranging the deck chairs.

So what are you complaining about? Theoretically, you are going to get credit for these retirements in arbitration, right? We are going down the path you wanted: the triggering of ALPA merger policy. You guys will sabotage the negotiations until arbitration is a must, and then a fair list will be decided by an arbitrator. Will you be willing to live with that list, or pull a USAir and sidestep that as well?

didn't you guys just push the nwa pilots out of the life boat considering you both had agreed upon a "joint" contract but because nwa didn't bend over for what "you" thought was fair in SLI you pushed them out and said start treading water...

I'm curious how delta felt about the usair/americawest seniority list?

My take and this is me only...

Now is the time that we will see name calling from official parties. Fine, that is to be expected. What we need to realize is a few things.
First, we did not play well together, so DALPA was approached by the board and asked if they would relax section one scope issues to let this deal go through. Why? Because management realized that there was no way that this deal could get done before 43 left office. This way they can get the ball rolling and let us sling mud for the next two to three years. History is shown that we will still show up to work, do our jobs, but just ***** while doing it.

Two, now that we (DAL) have a LOA it exerts pressure on the NWA MEC to get back to the table. This process can now take the course outlined by ALPA and MOST of the money is still there. (2% loss off the initial offer).

The danger here is apparent for both the DAL and NWA pilots. We at DAL need to make sure that we play fair with you guys. Why? well if you go out on strike I do not think that this new entity could survive.
Along these lines. There is a time line here to get an SLI, but the fact is that if I were a NWA guy I would feel boxed in the corner. Honestly I do not think that was the intention, but it is the result none the less.
We now get to do the SLI dance once again and yes, it will probably end up in Binding Arbitration. But the money will be there, and jobs will probably be secure.
To answer the question, "Does DALPA want binding Arbitration Now?"
No, but from their summation, I think that they feel it is inevitable with the NWA MEC. This allows time and circumstance to come in to play.

Some thoughts here:
I personally think that NWA will be right sized after the deal is consummated by the DOJ. I think that this will change the SLI negotiation.
Do I like it, not really. I wish that we could have gotten this done.
I firmly believe that we (DALPA negotiation committee) tried their hardest. I know them and they are top notch individuals. I would not question their integrity at all.
The next six to twelve months will be telling. Best of luck to all of us.

nwa should be upset because delta is saying we can work together as long as it is what we want. they had a joint contract agreed upon and they have now said screw nwa if they don't go with our SLI then you don't get the pay as well. delta pilots are saying that it is ok to work with a b-scale and opened themselve up to an internal whipsawing. what incentive does delta have to raise up the nwa side of things now? if nwa plays nice then they get cost savings from having a lowered payed pilot group and they most likely would drag it out for as long as possible. if nwa pilots get ****ed they could easily disrupt things trying to force the companies hand and now they come off as the bad guys for not helping the new airline. it's kind of a lose lose for nwa.

if people dont see how doh or relative seniority can be an advantage to either side than they are just blindly looking at it.

Negative ghostrider. Your claim of "we had all these upcoming retirements" only holds true with your CURRENT separate standalone NWA and crappy contract. Ask yourself if you really think guys at 60 would truly have retired with:

1. Significant equity $$
2. Huge (for NWA) pay raises to not only equal DAL's rates, but then join us for pay raises on top of that.
3. 14% DC contributions. For a widebody captain you are talking $30,000 a year (or more) into a B fund; add the time value of money and Age 65 and I would be surprised if anyone retired at 60.
4. Workrules that demand more pilots. For example, for all flying >12 hrs we require 2 captains and 2 FOs. Can you say "possible 747-400 captain bid?"

What we at DAL saw was a seniority grab wherein the NWA merger committee and MEC leadership (not your negotiating committee) wanted everything: DAL's pay, DAL's DC plan and equity $$, NWA's retirement plan (which you deserve) and super-seniority while the DAL guys would get thrown to the bottom of the seniority list.

That may have worked in 1986 with DC-9-centric Republic. It won't work with us.

That said, what should we have done? NOT pursued contractual improvements with our management? I certainly wouldn't be offended if you did the same. Also, remember that this is NOT the "joint combined contract." We all want one contract (and one more valuable than the TA LOA 19) one fair seniority list, and one great combined operation.

so what was relaxed?

would it hurt the delta 88 pilots or nwa 9 pilots more? meaning could delta now replace the 9 easier with this new relaxed scope?

why would the delta pilot group even think about loosening the scope language any more?

That was probably the most difficult integration imaginable, and of course we see the results. My personal opinion? The USAir MEC was unreasonable with their strict DOH position. That said, I truly believe they got the raw end of the arbitration decision. Something between Nic and strict DOH that would have resulted in 17-year furloughees going to the left seat and displacing current AWA captains might have been more reasonable.

But they have only themselves to blame. That is why we at DAL are so opposed to arbitration. Pawning the tough decisions to an arbitrator is an abrogation of the leadership duties you are appointed to fulfill, and you can never know just how he or she will rule.

Nobody pushed them to the lifeboats. They chose to stay on a ship taking water rather than get in the lifeboats. We made the decision to choose a lifeboat rather than be left behind on a ship that would flounder. Now, the ship has sunk so the question is does their MEC want to be rescued or not? Watch Leo Dicapprio in the Titanic. It's time they blow the whistles. From the sound of many NWA guys on this forum they realize that and have an honest realization of where we all are. If we come together and get a joint contract with a fair SLI the gains are enormous.

Eric,

This has been beaten to DEATH. Scope was relaxed because NWA's international flying would have exceeded our scope limits. They would have had to stop flying nearly all of their international flights to comply. Therefore, we relaxed our scope language to ensure the 747s and A330s would still operate. That, after all is the main reason for this merger. There is NO scope giveaways with RJs. I say again NO scope giveaway for RJs.

Got that? No scope give away for RJs. Now click your heels three times and say "there's no place like home".:confused:

I would think that from what happened here arbitration would work in delta's favor. the arbitrator didn't take into effect the age of the usair pilot group and now junior usair guys who were expecting to move up due to their retirements aren't getting it. they were put behind 2000 hires from what I've read and heard.

to me it seems a little hypocritical to think that usair got the short end and then tell nwa that they shouldn't get anything for their retirements. with relative seniority delta wasn't offering any consideration for those retirements. should nwa get everyone of those retirements? absolutely not but they also should get some and relative seniority doesn't offer that.

We don't want arbitration even if the entire DAL pilot group personally believed that we are well-positioned for it. It is too much of a wild card and is an abrogation of leadership--it is pawning off the tough decisions to a neutral third-party whom everyone can blame if things don't turn out the way we wish. That said, my understanding is that with our ratio proposal, if NWA pilots feel they weren't getting proper credit for retirements, then they should just wait, as DALs next round of retirements would ensue a few years later.

Also, as I posted previously, the whole "NWA has lots of upcoming retirements, thus we need seniority credit for them" may be a red herring anyway, as the lure of equity $$, possible significant pay raises and DC contributions may be a strong enough draw to keep many pilots on the property to Age 65.

Of course absent a crystal ball it is hard to entirely be sure.

by not agreeing to your SLI is staying on the boat? come on...if they had been fighting the contract as well then I would agree with you. that's like saying because you didn't agree to their demand in SLI then you stayed on the boat as well. that really just doesn't float...

considering I haven't read anything on it I think you should just take a deep breath and relax:rolleyes:

how does nwa international flying exceed scope limits???? I've never heard of scope that doesn't allow international flying.

Because our scope clause says that international flying must be performed by DELTA pilots. Upon closing the merger, and before the SLI, the company would be Delta, governed by the DL CBA, but the 747s and A330s would be flown by non Delta SL pilots. This agreement allows the sharing of international block hours between DL and NW pilots.

that to me sounds like delta saying "if you don't like it tough, we'll have some after your's now deal with it" that really doesn't sound like negociations but demands.

of coarse without a crystal ball you don't give credit for all retirements but some. neither side can say everyone will leave or everyone will stay (even with those new incentives) it's compromise and it sounds like neither side was doing much of it.

I get it... doesn't float... now that's funny, I don't care who you are.


Just remember, it's smothered and covered ya'll:D

How is keeping your relative seniority (within .5%) at the new combined carrier getting screwed? If you are at 50% on the NWA seniority list now... and 50% on the combined SL later... seems pretty fair to me. I think the NWA guys are letting their pride get in the way (i.e. I don't want to be junior to a DAL guy who got hired 1 or 2 years after me).

In my opinion, as long as the DAL guys directly in front of you/behind you (on the combined list) were at the 50% mark on DAL's list then it seems quite legitimate. Please explain why it should be otherwise.

got it, thanks

is their any kind of date that says when that flying must be done by delta pilots? I can see this growing into a big whipsaw between nwa and delta pilots.

I agree with that premise to a point. How's about getting merged and having guys that were hired 5-9 years later than you directly in front of you on the seniority list?

CAL's 87-90 hires are staring this in the face as well as UAL's 96-00 hires. 1-2 years is no big deal but the above numbers are.

Answer to first question: Uh.......no.

Answer to second question: I fail to see you point. The USair/AWA debacle was the the result of an arbitrator's decision. I refuse to put my future in the hands of a bureaucrat who doesn't have to live with the decision he makes for the rest of his life. In addition, comparing USAir/AWA to DelWest is apples and oranges for a host of reasons.

Who do you work for again? I see you stoke the flame fires on all sides but I'm curious whats in it for you other than entertainment.

Eric,

This seems to be a recurring problem with you. You like to stir the pot without any real understanding of the issues. Do me, and everyone else a favor and find a copy of your Pilot's Contract (dust it off since you've apparently never read it.) Now read the section on Scope and you will find that there are all sorts of things in there that have nothing to do with RJs. We are going to have enough problems with this merger without someone who is ignorant of the issues trying to instigate dissention between the two groups with false information.

here is the quick and dirty.

relative seniority would be fair for the moment but for the airline that is expecting a lot of retirements in the near future it become a disadvantage for them down the road and an advantage to the other airline.

look at the usair/america west seniority. a lot of people feel usair got the shaft because some 17 year pilots were put behind late 90's and early 2000's pilots due to relative seniority. those usair pilots could have expected rather quick movement because the average age of usair was around 53. that movement has changed due to the intergration.

this is similar to that but on a smaller scale.

So Eric if or when Cal and Ual get together how would you suggest we integrate?

Pick one or the other
 

You guys can argue till the cows come home, your not going to agree who's method is fairer. Its going to be arbitrated. Get control of the situation, agree to how its arbitrated so some numb*** can't/doesn't create the fiasco that is the USAir/American West merger. I suggest you convince an Arbitrator(s) to choose one or the others list. No weeks/months long drawn out affair where some guy bills millions of dollars to write a list that everyone hates, blames ALPA, and starts a civil war. :(

to the Uh...no, yes you kind of did it sounds. from my take the merger needed you to change the scope to allow the nwa pilots to fly the 330/747 as someone stated. you could have said yes as long as the contract that was approved by both airlines is implamented for both but instead you said all you have to do is give us the benefits. you guys had control of that life raft and said only delta guys are allowed. you still don't have a SLI and now you don't have a joint contract. could that change...hopefully.

as with usair/aw, when that decision came out everyone that I ran into felt that usair got hosed and yes this included delta pilots that I know and have run into. this isn't apples to oranges it's more like red apples vs. green apples. some of the same issues but not all. I just find it interesting how points of view can change when someone is directly involved or not.

as for who I work for it's the airlines...what's in it for me is how it affects the industry as a whole. I don't see a potential whipsaw within your new delta as entertainment. I see it as stupidity and extreme shortsidedness.

It's nice you point out that I stroke multiple flames and not just yours;)

well maybe your name says it all, DelDah....priceless.

I think your pilot groups have already created dissention within yourselves you don't need me for that. by the way how is asking a question instigating dissention?

I guess you should be the one to know the scope section considering it's slowly dwindling away...:rolleyes:

merge so that everyone feels they got hosed. :(

if you do and it's on the board (which I'm sure it would be) I'll throw my 2 cents in.

Are you a pilot or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

I like to know who my adversary is? I'm an ATL 757/767 FO with Delta. What and who are you?

I always loved that line.

I'm an airline pilot here in the US. I've been an FO and a CA. why would it matter who I work for or what I fly?

The problem is I am not your adversary but I will call things out that I see as bs or lopsided and I've ripped on my company as well on these boards.

There was never a joint contract. There was a tentitive agreement contingent upon getting a seniority list done. No SLI and no joint contract. We did not get the SLI done so the TA on a contract was thrown out. The company only agreed to the contract based on costs savings in having the SLI list done upfront. No SLI no contract. There was not a new contract put in its place. DALPA put a side letter in place(LOA 19). It will only be in effect until a new joint contract is negotiated with the company. That process will start right away.

Don't compare this to US Air / Amer West because it's just not the same. US Air was a sinking ship and should be glad America West came to their rescue. They can |3 ! t c h all they want but they could've easily been out of a job and starting over at the bottom of another air carrier's seniority list. Neither Delta, nor NWA, are in that position. Yes, things are tough. Yes, they are probably going to get tougher. But both companies have been solid even in these trying times. I hope we can work things out. A rising tide lifts all boats!

Good luck to us all.

The keyword is "could"... Unless you have a signed agreement that says all NWA pilots that reaches age 60 will retire, it won't hold out in a court of law.

Also, you sound like DAL pilots are all in their 20s, and the NWA pilots are all in their 50s. Nwa has a spur of retirement (supposedly those who retire at 60) in the next 5-10 years, but after that, DAL will catch up and surpass in about 15 years from now. So any logical person will see that for an average newhire of both airline, this see-saw will balance out in the long term.