A Novel Approach to DAL/NWA SLI
 

First, watch this clip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cx7Dbo48mqA

Okay, so now we allow the NWA pilot group to write the rules for seniority list integration. The catch is that it has to be done in a manner equally applicable to either pilot group. It can be as complicated as you want, potentially factoring in such things as age, longevity, DOH, equipment, three-year rolling pay totals, ratio of ex-wives to boats (or snowmobiles), whatever, so long as when it's all done, you could substitute either pilot group in the formula and have it spit out an integrated seniority list. Then, the Delta pilots get to choose which group goes in which input. Or vice versa.

Thoughts?

im game...that method always worked when I was growing up (however I quickly learned to be the chooser, not the cutter)

[quote=StripAlert;373139]First, watch this clip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cx7Dbo48mqA

Who the hell eats plain peanut butter? Besides the kid on the right (future DAL MEC member) was trying to screw his "brother" out of his rightful piece of the sandwhich.;););)

PS. The above is all in jest - lest anything think I went really off the deep end.

Scoop

Maybe this idea has been floated and I missed it, but what about a mix of DOH and relative seniority?? Would work like this:

Break up both lists by relative seniority in 5% groups. Top 5% of Delta list is integrated with top 5% of NWA list by DOH. Do the same for each 5% on down the line. Assuming it takes a significantly earlier DOH for a current NWA guy to hold the same relative position as a DAL guy, I see some of the pros and cons as follows:

Pros: A) For NWA guys, you could not lose relative seniority and most would actually gain 2-3%. You would also be senior to all the delta guys who currently hold the same relative seniority; therefore, you would advance ahead of your new DAL peers.
B) For DAL guys, most of you would find yourself senior to NWA guys hired before you. Because you hold a relative seniority about 5-10% greater than NWA folks with roughly the same DOH, most DAL guys would find themselves at the bottom of the 5% category they started in, but above NWA guys who were locked into the 5% category below them.

I.E. DAL DOH of Jul 1999 holds 72.5% would go no lower than 74.9%
while NWA DOH of Jul 1997 holds 77.5% would go no higher than 75.0 %
(Assuming a lower percentage is higher seniority, and dates and percentages are hypothetical).

Cons: A) Most NWA folks (accept top of list and bottom of list) will find themselves junior to DAL folks with DOH about 1-2 years after them.
B) Most DAL folks will give up 2-3% of relative seniority.

Bottom line, the seniority picture has changed...there will be some pain. The best way to absorb it is to spread it. I realize there are millions of little details, but I think this could be a workable framework....and it is very simple.

Is it even worth discussing???

Bullseye!

It should be done this way everytime...

Problem with that would be the unlucky DAL guy who was, say, 5.00001% on his list- he would go to 10%(because of NWA earlier DOH in the ENTIRE NWA group from 5-10%) and his next senior DAL mate would be at 5.0%. In the top 20% of the combined list (2500 pilots) the DAL guys (with the possible exception of the 210 or so pre-85' hires) would automatically lose aprox. 2.5% to EXACTLY 5.0%.

Wiggy,
That DAL guy would still find himself senior to several NWA guys with earlier DOH because they started out in a category below him. Like I said, the net result of the merger is some pain...you have to decide how to spread it. The NWA guy at 10.001% who finds himself below your hypothetical DAL pilot might be a little upset because he was hired a year or two before. This is good...everyone is a little ticked off...perfect.

Wiggy,
Also, your statement that a DAL guy could go from 5.0001 to 10.0 is impossible. At the current staff levels, each 5% category would include 270 NWA and 370 DAL. If your DAL pilot was at the top of his 5% category at DAL, the worst he could do is be behind 270 NWA guys moving him from 5.0 to 7.1.

What about splitting the difference DOH and relative seniority. I was hired in 96 at nwa and I have a good friend hired at DAL in Jul 97. My relative seniority at NWA is 67% on the combined DAL list (Thanks to Steve of ezopenboard) I would be 7200 which would put me at 59% relative seniority. Thus if we split the differnce I would be at 64% relative seniority or 7800 which would put me behind my friend hired in Jul 97 at DAL.

I understand what you are saying, maybe reduce the arbitrary interval from 5% to 2.5-3.0% ( the interval represents roughly what a DAL guy would lose- at least in the top 20-25% of the combined list) whereas the NWA guys would gain approx. 0-3.0%.

You're right , my bad, tha t would be approx. 2.0% loss ar worse.

ITSALLGOOD, I believe in sharing pain but I don't believe in windfalls. My problem with that approach is: DL is taking delivery of 6 777's in Dec. thru Mar. In your sli the senior ex-Rep guys could all step up to those a/c instead of DL guys.That is a windfall for NW. I would agree to that if you fence off our 777's and NW's 787's. Relative seniority = no fences, Doh or any hybrid = fences.

That's a very interesting idea. I think it's worth a hell of a lot more than just discussion.

Carl

A Thought
 

There are only 2 ways to advance in this business. Attrition and growth. First, attrition. DAL has already experienced a large jump in seniority already due to the mass exodus. NWA is just now getting ready to experience theirs from the large retirement numbers over the next 5 or so years. Both airlines have negotiated their BK contracts with these conditions in mind, hence the differences in pay, frozen retirements, defined contributions and career expectations just to name a few. Attrition is pretty firm and can be planned on by looking at birthdays. Attrition is not affected by economic conditions or mgt whims. Growth on the other hand is variable. Mgt changes growth plans on what seems like a daily basis. It is greatly affected by economic conditions. While growth needs to be considered in seniority integration, it is not as easy to pin down as attrition. Economic incentives will come and go (mgt giveth and mgt taketh away), but seniority is forever. If this deal is going to get decided out of arbitration, both sides will have to concentrate on the seniority side of the equation and leave the economic incentives for the joint contract negotiations. The main crux of the problem is DAL has already experienced their attrition covering the next 5 or so years and have reaped the benefits of that advancement already. NWA is still waiting to experience that attrition and reap the ensuing benefits. That crux is also what both sides current contracts are based on. It is no surprise that DAL wants to base career expectations primarily on growth and NWA wants to base it primarily on attrition. Both sides need to realize where the other side is coming from and realize that what is fair is going to be different for each side. IMHO they need to get the SLI done first, then negotiate the joint contract as a unified pilot group. Do not read this as a veiled attack on DALs LOA 19. It isn't. That is water under the bridge. Words are cheap and it is time for action. Its time to NEGOTIATE (that implies give and take) a seniority list divorced of the economic package/incentives, then get down to business with the joint contract for ALL future Delta pilots. Get the horse in front of the cart again and start acting like a unified ALPA front. If we don't, it will be the typical mgt divide and conquer playbook all over again. Just a thought.

I couldn't agree more. Last time we stumbled on the SLI after having agreed to all points of a new joint contract. Since it looks like we are planning to do things in the same order this time around, it looks like a recipe for yet another failure.

SLI first, contract last.

Carl

Carl,
I have to disagree. If it's done that way, then pay and work rules (QOL) get held hostage by the SLI. Look at AAA/AWA. Until the SLI is finished over there, they are on two different contracts, with lower payrates, and the company is whipsawing them over the new A330s. Better to get a joint contract, which we can both work under while we sort out the SLI. Just my opinion though.

Of course you disagree...It worked so well that way the first couple of times.:rolleyes: The contract was done. Everyone agreed. No SLI so no contract. I guess we'll just wait for LOA 20 and try again.

No offense, but your comment shows that you didn't understand how the Transactional Agreement was structured. The Joint Contract and SLI were tied to each other, which means that they both had to be agreed upon to be effective. Now we are working under a different structure and the two are decoupled, which means that the Joint Contract will be voted on separately, (we don't actually get to vote on the SLI,) thereby keeping any one group from holding payraises for everybody hostage until the SLI is concluded to their satisfaction. This effectively prevents the Delta pilots from using LOA 19 to pressure the NW pilots to accept an SLI slanted towards us. I would think that that is what the NW pilots would want.

I hope you are right.

Cart or Horse...I don't care
 

I really don't care which one comes first as long as the SLI negotiations are divorced from the economic incentives. Seniority is not for sale. I'd rather work under our crappy BK contract until 2012 than sell my seniority. The economic incentives can be there on day 2, and gone on day 3. Economic conditions come and go, but seniority is forever. The seniority list may have to look good on day 2 as well, but it also needs to look good at year 10. If you don't think LOA 19 was designed to pressure the NWA pilots, then denial really is the name of a river in Egypt.

This is basically the holy grail of NWA's negotiation strategy. However, I understand that many of the 60-year-olds who would "never stay a day past 60" due to their frozen pensions, are staying...whether to get a potential equity payout or whatever.

If those guys continue to stick around in significant numbers, the arbitrator will take note.

Probably best not to overplay this perceived advantage.

ExAF, Can you tell me how you feel that LOA 19 pressures the NWA pilots. It does not effect their pay or working conditions so it can't be that. It protects their international flying that would other wise have to be cut after DCC to stay within international code share block hours so it can't be that. What pressure is LOA 19 going to put on the NWA pilots?

So far this year we have a little over 80% of the age 60 guys leaving. Most of the guys staying are pilots that do not have a large number of years with NWA thus their frozen DB plan is not all that great.

NWA was hit with an EEOC lawsuit in the past thus NWA hired guys that were between 40-50 back in the mid to late 90's.

really...if you don't see it just reverse the senerio. for some reason I think you guys do see it but just don't want to acknowledge it.

if you tabled LOA 19 until the SLI was done then I would agree there is no leverage. if LOA was just part of your everyday contract why not implament it now. it's being held over your head to agree to the merger and it's being held over nwa's head in regards to the SLI. (bend and you'll get it sooner rather than later)

all of us in this industry will soon see who really is being honest in regards to wanting this done by the merger date. delta said it's not coming off of the relative seniority and nwa didn't sound like they were budging off of their last offer (whatever that is). you've got about 8 months.

nwa didn't sound like they were budging off of their last offer (whatever that is).

And just why is it that we don't know "whatever that is"?

does it really matter? neither side thinks the other's offer is fair.

Sailing,

This is nearly the identical post you sent to me and to every NWA guy that says LOA 19 puts huge pressure on NWA pilots. After all I have said and others have said, are you still unable to understand? Are we all just hopelessly misinformed?

Carl

I think that is it exactly. With the roles reversed DALPA would be seeing it clearly.

Carl

Of course it doesn't matter. It does seem a bit odd that some are so adament to argue over something they have no knowledge of other than vague implication. (someone told me to be mad so I am!!!) Just an observation.......

I was at the roadshow the other day and will post a review when I have a little more time. The LOA is not pressuring NWA into anything. This "merger" is an acquisition. It is going to happen whether we have an LOA or not. If we have an LOA perhaps the merger will allow the collective agreement between both groups to be better than what LOA is on its own. I believe it is meant as a foundation as such. But make no mistake, this merger will happen and voting no for LOA 19 will have no impact on its progression.

I am going to the road show tomorrow. Are there two versions of the show, a delta mec version and a nwa mec version? If so, I would like to see both.

Well your MEC chairman does not feel it puts any pressure on your pilots according to a NWA pilot who just attended the road show. Pilots here say it puts huge pressure on NWA. I just can't seem to see where it puts any pressure at all. It appears to me it only helps.

yes there are two but you will only be able to see one version. whichever one you work for.

if you want to know what the other one says just subtitute delta for nwa and nwa for delta. both will say that the other side was wrong, inflexable or however you want to put it.

So as an employee of neither company you know what is said how? FWIW, that was not what was said at the DALPA roadshow I went to.

so what did they say at the delta road show?

I bet they didn't say that the nwa idea for SLI was a good deal and you should have taken it.

No, they said there is no point in arguing about the past. The only option is to keep moving forward. This merger will happen whether we want it to or not. We can either work together and reap the benefits, or remain divided and watch everyone else profit while we get donkey D.

do you mean work with nwa alpa or delta management?

did they say how they preceived the last few months played out?

Eric,

Could you be any more of a dork?

Isn't it time for prom?

what's wrong DAL4EVER too difficult of a question to answer?

as it stands now the only group that isn't reaping the benefits is the nwa pilots.

by the way donkey, prom was last week...

Not too difficult. You just seem to be more incendiary than any of the NWA guys. You seem like the type to play devil's advocate to get others riled up while you sit on the sideline and watch the fight. Who do you work for? I can't possibly find out who you are. I just would like to know who you work for so we can take a historical view of the contributions of your pilot group. Attend a roadshow at DAL. Hear for yourself the facts. The SLI was hung up over growth issues. Nothing more. My NWA brothers will reap from this contract because of advances over their current contract. When the joint contract is signed, we will all see the benefits of this.