DL management/NWA MEC
06-18-2008, 08:48 AM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
A few of the Delta pilots here are upset about the fact that our pension plans are different, and they don't want to fund "ours" with "their" money. I offer to convert our DB plan to a DC plan that would pay out the benefits accrued up until the time it was frozen. Accepting just the PBGC payment wouldn't come close to the accrued benefit up until the freezing.
So no...that is not at all what I am saying.
Carl
So no...that is not at all what I am saying.
Carl
You took lower payrates AND a lower DC so that your company could make up this $1+ billion shortfall. Now, you're asking for DAL payrates, DAL DC, AND all of us to kick into the $1B.
I ask again, what's in this for the average DAL pilot? I see you getting better payrates, better DC, a larger asset base to shore up a woefully underfunded DB, and better bases... And while I am actually OK with all of that, what ****es me off the most, is you will whine if it takes the combined company a few years to get all that to you.
Pine
06-18-2008, 08:58 AM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Are you guys pilots or financial planners/managers for DAL? You act like that money is yours. It's not.
What do you do, worry about the payrates of flight attendants, rampers, gate agents, ect.
If you think NWA pilots are getting too much in the pension department, then ask to be brought up. I gurantee you we will fully support you.
Otherwise, just go to work and fly the airplanes. (Which aren't yours either)
New K Now
What do you do, worry about the payrates of flight attendants, rampers, gate agents, ect.
If you think NWA pilots are getting too much in the pension department, then ask to be brought up. I gurantee you we will fully support you.
Otherwise, just go to work and fly the airplanes. (Which aren't yours either)
New K Now
Last edited by newKnow; 06-18-2008 at 09:05 AM.
06-18-2008, 09:38 AM
#123
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by newKnow
Are you guys pilots or financial planners/managers for DAL? You act like that money is yours. It's not.
New K Now
New K Now
It's human nature to deride a person who you think is getting a better deal than you. At the base core, humans are socialists and want what the other person has, unless thay are the ones giving something up.
Here's an idea for your DB plan. How about not funding it anymore, let it either make or lose money on it's investments. Then take the money that would have been required to fund it, and divide it up for everyone's DC. I don't know if that's legal though, I'm just a pilot, not a financial planner/manager.
06-18-2008, 09:47 AM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
It's human nature to deride a person who you think is getting a better deal than you. At the base core, humans are socialists and want what the other person has, unless thay are the ones giving something up.
Here's an idea for your DB plan. How about not funding it anymore, let it either make or lose money on it's investments. Then take the money that would have been required to fund it, and divide it up for everyone's DC. I don't know if that's legal though, I'm just a pilot, not a financial planner/manager.
Here's an idea for your DB plan. How about not funding it anymore, let it either make or lose money on it's investments. Then take the money that would have been required to fund it, and divide it up for everyone's DC. I don't know if that's legal though, I'm just a pilot, not a financial planner/manager.
<although an argument can be made that I have a steak in 36 E-170's that are flying around for Compass and 49% of the Midwest Express venture>
New K Now
06-18-2008, 09:50 AM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
It's human nature to deride a person who you think is getting a better deal than you. At the base core, humans are socialists and want what the other person has, unless thay are the ones giving something up.
Here's an idea for your DB plan. How about not funding it anymore, let it either make or lose money on it's investments. Then take the money that would have been required to fund it, and divide it up for everyone's DC. I don't know if that's legal though, I'm just a pilot, not a financial planner/manager.
Here's an idea for your DB plan. How about not funding it anymore, let it either make or lose money on it's investments. Then take the money that would have been required to fund it, and divide it up for everyone's DC. I don't know if that's legal though, I'm just a pilot, not a financial planner/manager.
Oh, believe me, I have seen that aspect of the human nature for the last 13 years. It doesn't get anyone anywhere.
06-18-2008, 10:34 AM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by newKnow
If you think NWA pilots are getting too much in the pension department, then ask to be brought up. I gurantee you we will fully support you.
New K Now
New K Now
Did I get that right?
06-18-2008, 12:49 PM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by newKnow
Are you guys pilots or financial planners/managers for DAL? You act like that money is yours. It's not.
In other words, you're damn skippy that money is "ours."
Your MEC is treating the JPWA/SLI as a zero-sum game. So be it. I think they underestimate the backbone of the DAL pilot group.
NALPA wants a zero-sum game, fine. That means every dollar NWA pilots get, is a dollar that DAL pilots will not get. Every seniority slot that NWA pilots whine and pout about, is another holiday a DAL guy will have to spend in Detroit. It will be very instructive if a weak contract and/or SLI proposal comes up for a vote at DAL. I think you'll find your bargaining position is not what your MEC thinks it is.
One thing is for certain. I'm beginning to appreciate the genius of LOA 19 more and more every day. There is no reason for DAL pilots to be in a rush to jump into a pile of crap.
DAL has 777s on the way and is planning to hire this fall as a result....yes, you heard right. Hire.
How is NWA's "$3.5 billion in cash" going to help the NWA pilot group when furloughs start this fall with the new draw-downs?
As Keenster and Carl stated, if NWA management needed you, they would have upped your compensation--or at least negotiated something with you to repair your unsatisfactory contract. But they haven't. That $3.5 billion in cash might as well be Monopoly money as far as NWA pilots are concerned. It certainly isn't yours, nor will you benefit from it without a JPWA and SLI list approved by both NWA and DAL pilots. It had better be equally beneficial.
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 06-18-2008 at 01:19 PM.
06-18-2008, 03:00 PM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by slowplay
Just to be clear, you'll be OK when DAL pilots get pay parity with NWA, get DC parity with NWA, and get additional DC funding equivalent to the amount that is required to fund the NWA frozen DB.
Did I get that right?
Did I get that right?
I wonder if you would say the same thing if the arbitrator went DOH? No saying he would, but I imagine you guys would be up in arms because you would think NWA pilots would be getting over on you, when that is not the intent.
After living this "dream" here at NWA for the past 13 years, I just think its best for the company to spend whatever money they can now to smooth thing over between the two groups is money spent wisely.
Early retirement buyouts, equal pensions, whatever. I'm sure eventually it would pay for itself down the road. When you see people fighting, screaming, not talking, calling in sick, delaying flights, all because they are flying with the wrong "color" who is senoir or junior or who can or can't hold an aircraft, you will agree.
So, I really don't care what money you get to get equal with NWA pilots. Why? I don't write the check on behalf of DAL, and even if I did, I know it would probably be money well spent.
New K Now
06-18-2008, 03:21 PM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spliff
Are you serious? Every red cent that comes into the company is another cent that we could be paid. At the very least, it can be used for negotiating leverage...for those who can't see the big picture, that means higher pay, better bennies and work rules, etc. Wake up, fella. I'm not encouraged by your lack of strategic vision.
In other words, you're damn skippy that money is "ours."
Your MEC is treating the JPWA/SLI as a zero-sum game. So be it. I think they underestimate the backbone of the DAL pilot group.
NALPA wants a zero-sum game, fine. That means every dollar NWA pilots get, is a dollar that DAL pilots will not get. Every seniority slot that NWA pilots whine and pout about, is another holiday a DAL guy will have to spend in Detroit. It will be very instructive if a weak contract and/or SLI proposal comes up for a vote at DAL. I think you'll find your bargaining position is not what your MEC thinks it is.
One thing is for certain. I'm beginning to appreciate the genius of LOA 19 more and more every day. There is no reason for DAL pilots to be in a rush to jump into a pile of crap.
DAL has 777s on the way and is planning to hire this fall as a result....yes, you heard right. Hire.
How is NWA's "$3.5 billion in cash" going to help the NWA pilot group when furloughs start this fall with the new draw-downs?
As Keenster and Carl stated, if NWA management needed you, they would have upped your compensation--or at least negotiated something with you to repair your unsatisfactory contract. But they haven't. That $3.5 billion in cash might as well be Monopoly money as far as NWA pilots are concerned. It certainly isn't yours, nor will you benefit from it without a JPWA and SLI list approved by both NWA and DAL pilots. It had better be equally beneficial.
In other words, you're damn skippy that money is "ours."
Your MEC is treating the JPWA/SLI as a zero-sum game. So be it. I think they underestimate the backbone of the DAL pilot group.
NALPA wants a zero-sum game, fine. That means every dollar NWA pilots get, is a dollar that DAL pilots will not get. Every seniority slot that NWA pilots whine and pout about, is another holiday a DAL guy will have to spend in Detroit. It will be very instructive if a weak contract and/or SLI proposal comes up for a vote at DAL. I think you'll find your bargaining position is not what your MEC thinks it is.
One thing is for certain. I'm beginning to appreciate the genius of LOA 19 more and more every day. There is no reason for DAL pilots to be in a rush to jump into a pile of crap.
DAL has 777s on the way and is planning to hire this fall as a result....yes, you heard right. Hire.
How is NWA's "$3.5 billion in cash" going to help the NWA pilot group when furloughs start this fall with the new draw-downs?
As Keenster and Carl stated, if NWA management needed you, they would have upped your compensation--or at least negotiated something with you to repair your unsatisfactory contract. But they haven't. That $3.5 billion in cash might as well be Monopoly money as far as NWA pilots are concerned. It certainly isn't yours, nor will you benefit from it without a JPWA and SLI list approved by both NWA and DAL pilots. It had better be equally beneficial.
What are you, schizophrenic? You first argue that the "money is ours" (damn skippy) and that you can use it as negotiating capital and such. Then 6 paragraphs later you tell me that the $3.5 billion (in cash) that NWA has "certianly isn't yours, nor will you beneift from it...."
If I don't have strategic vision then you must be cross-eyed.
Get your argument straight before you post.
Have you been at DAL so short of a time that you not only drink the cool-aid but you also help make it? You obviously dont know how things work in this business so why not just watch and learn.
You are obviously trying to get into it with some NWA guy about something, but your two sided argument in your post speaks for itself.
If you want a rebutal to the first point you made, read the last part of your post.
If you want a rebuttal the the last point you made, read the first part of your post.
When you are ready to have a real discussion, press the 'exit hold' key first.
New K Now
Last edited by newKnow; 06-18-2008 at 03:59 PM.
06-18-2008, 05:28 PM
#130
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spliff
Are you serious? Every red cent that comes into the company is another cent that we could be paid. At the very least, it can be used for negotiating leverage...for those who can't see the big picture, that means higher pay, better bennies and work rules, etc. Wake up, fella. I'm not encouraged by your lack of strategic vision.
In other words, you're damn skippy that money is "ours."
Your MEC is treating the JPWA/SLI as a zero-sum game. So be it. I think they underestimate the backbone of the DAL pilot group.
NALPA wants a zero-sum game, fine. That means every dollar NWA pilots get, is a dollar that DAL pilots will not get. Every seniority slot that NWA pilots whine and pout about, is another holiday a DAL guy will have to spend in Detroit. It will be very instructive if a weak contract and/or SLI proposal comes up for a vote at DAL. I think you'll find your bargaining position is not what your MEC thinks it is.
One thing is for certain. I'm beginning to appreciate the genius of LOA 19 more and more every day. There is no reason for DAL pilots to be in a rush to jump into a pile of crap.
DAL has 777s on the way and is planning to hire this fall as a result....yes, you heard right. Hire.
How is NWA's "$3.5 billion in cash" going to help the NWA pilot group when furloughs start this fall with the new draw-downs?
As Keenster and Carl stated, if NWA management needed you, they would have upped your compensation--or at least negotiated something with you to repair your unsatisfactory contract. But they haven't. That $3.5 billion in cash might as well be Monopoly money as far as NWA pilots are concerned. It certainly isn't yours, nor will you benefit from it without a JPWA and SLI list approved by both NWA and DAL pilots. It had better be equally beneficial.
In other words, you're damn skippy that money is "ours."
Your MEC is treating the JPWA/SLI as a zero-sum game. So be it. I think they underestimate the backbone of the DAL pilot group.
NALPA wants a zero-sum game, fine. That means every dollar NWA pilots get, is a dollar that DAL pilots will not get. Every seniority slot that NWA pilots whine and pout about, is another holiday a DAL guy will have to spend in Detroit. It will be very instructive if a weak contract and/or SLI proposal comes up for a vote at DAL. I think you'll find your bargaining position is not what your MEC thinks it is.
One thing is for certain. I'm beginning to appreciate the genius of LOA 19 more and more every day. There is no reason for DAL pilots to be in a rush to jump into a pile of crap.
DAL has 777s on the way and is planning to hire this fall as a result....yes, you heard right. Hire.
How is NWA's "$3.5 billion in cash" going to help the NWA pilot group when furloughs start this fall with the new draw-downs?
As Keenster and Carl stated, if NWA management needed you, they would have upped your compensation--or at least negotiated something with you to repair your unsatisfactory contract. But they haven't. That $3.5 billion in cash might as well be Monopoly money as far as NWA pilots are concerned. It certainly isn't yours, nor will you benefit from it without a JPWA and SLI list approved by both NWA and DAL pilots. It had better be equally beneficial.
I truly take comfort in the knowledge that people like you and Pineapple are on the fringe extremes of this debate, and I think everyone else should understand this. Your opinion is not shared by Mr. Anderson, Mr. Bastian, or Mr. Moak. They all understand that once we are all Delta pilots, there must be equal pay. Try to drag pensions, cooler bases, thinner flight attendants, into the debate all you want. It's just a sophomoric attempt to dilute the argument, and rile people's emotions. Do you really think that people here aren't smart enough to see what you're trying??
You are nothing but flame bait.
Carl
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
