What are "prevailing equities"
11-02-2008, 04:31 AM
#51
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
If I was on the NWA team, my bottom line position of what I would accept in negotiations would be a straight mathematical ratio right down to the .000001%. Then apply a minimal fence IF dynamic seniority was instituted. With dynamic seniority, NWA will only get credit for retirements that actually happen. Same for DAL when their retirements begin to spool up. I know people will pipe up about how that's the most unfair SLI proposal they've ever heard, but if NWA guys can't achieve that via negotiations, then I would take the chance with arbitration.
Now if you wanted to include the BAD with the good, meaning both sides get credit for retirement attrition, and both sides get credit for fleet attrition, then it might work. That means for every 742, DC9 and 787 that leaves the fleet plan NWA pilots move down on "their" list, and for every 737 and 777 delivered DAL pilots move up. But I'm quite sure there'll be no negotiated list that only contains limited items favorable to NWA in the short and long term (retirement attrition and mid-length fences).
If you'll remember the February negotiations broke down over this very point.
11-02-2008, 07:07 AM
#52
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by slowplay
Now if you wanted to include the BAD with the good, meaning both sides get credit for retirement attrition, and both sides get credit for fleet attrition, then it might work. That means for every 742, DC9 and 787 that leaves the fleet plan NWA pilots move down on "their" list, and for every 737 and 777 delivered DAL pilots move up. But I'm quite sure there'll be no negotiated list that only contains limited items favorable to NWA in the short and long term (retirement attrition and mid-length fences).
PG
11-02-2008, 10:29 AM
#53
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Joined APC: May 2008
Position: VEOP Retired! 7ER A was last position
Posts: 978
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Actually Denny, I think that is EXACTLY what will happen. The arbitrators may even go to both sides privately and say just that.
If I was on the NWA team, my bottom line position of what I would accept in negotiations would be a straight mathematical ratio right down to the .000001%. Then apply a minimal fence IF dynamic seniority was instituted. With dynamic seniority, NWA will only get credit for retirements that actually happen. Same for DAL when their retirements begin to spool up. I know people will pipe up about how that's the most unfair SLI proposal they've ever heard, but if NWA guys can't achieve that via negotiations, then I would take the chance with arbitration.
Denny, you are the king of the typewritten mental picture!
Carl - sadly, not Denny Crane
If I was on the NWA team, my bottom line position of what I would accept in negotiations would be a straight mathematical ratio right down to the .000001%. Then apply a minimal fence IF dynamic seniority was instituted. With dynamic seniority, NWA will only get credit for retirements that actually happen. Same for DAL when their retirements begin to spool up. I know people will pipe up about how that's the most unfair SLI proposal they've ever heard, but if NWA guys can't achieve that via negotiations, then I would take the chance with arbitration.
Denny, you are the king of the typewritten mental picture!
Carl - sadly, not Denny Crane
A straight ratio is probably the fairest, but I think that using a dynamic list will create a mess for the categories in the future. So do you reshuffle EVERY category for the next umpteen years every time a pilot retires? You could never count on your relative position in a category month to month. Then there is the question about only making a list "dynamic" because of retirements. What about fleet retirements and previously announced growth airplanes. I think Delta guys lose if a dynamic list involves only retirements and the whole pilot group loses if we have to live under a dynamic list for years. Straight ratio and call it even for your nearterm retirements and our nearterm orders and mid to long term retirements
Cog
11-02-2008, 11:03 AM
#55
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
How about Dynamic only for early retirements? DAL guys keep saying early retirements won't happen, so they should be good with that, right?
11-02-2008, 11:44 AM
#56
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I don't think Delta guys are saying they wont happen. Early retirements however have limited value depending on how old the pilot is when he goes out early. We were hearing from NWA pilots that upwards of 1000 pilots would leave before DCC. We now hear the actual number was in single digits. If the list goes DOH many of your current domestic narrow body captains will go from 15 days a month of domestic flying to 9 or 10 days a month of international with great layovers. I think many will stay. Historically only 50% of pilots however make it to age 60 anyway because of medical or check ride issues. Many early retirements at Delta occur after a pilot has a check ride. He is quietly taken aside and told that it would be in his best interest to retire early.
11-02-2008, 01:30 PM
#57
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by NWA320pilot
I keep seeing DAL guyspost how NWA. Pilots were saying 1000+ early retirements but I hven' actually been able to find any post stating this...... Can somebody show me where all these posts are?
Originally Posted by capncrunch
Scoopy, I don't think so. NWA is looking at upwards of 1000 guys jumping ship before DCC to avoid the increase in benefit premiums. Combine that with the probable 10 year fence and were short big time. I also heard that were pulling upwards of 25 DC9-30s from the desert because of the price of oil. That being said, NWAs side of the new Delta will be hiring.
PS
My guess on the 5 to 10 year fence is that it will be negotiated because the arbitrator warned Delta that this is a merger of equals.
PS
My guess on the 5 to 10 year fence is that it will be negotiated because the arbitrator warned Delta that this is a merger of equals.
Last edited by TBoneF15; 11-02-2008 at 01:40 PM.
11-02-2008, 02:09 PM
#59
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Wiggy,
Studies have shown that most people listen to someone only long enough to defend or refute. As soon as the person thinks of a defense or a refutation, they're done listening. You are one of those people. There is so much wrong with what you've posted that I don't even want to try to correct. First of all you wouldn't listen, secondly it wouldn't matter. NWA pilots haven't surrendered, and that is the only thing that you're interested in.
Bye,
Carl
Studies have shown that most people listen to someone only long enough to defend or refute. As soon as the person thinks of a defense or a refutation, they're done listening. You are one of those people. There is so much wrong with what you've posted that I don't even want to try to correct. First of all you wouldn't listen, secondly it wouldn't matter. NWA pilots haven't surrendered, and that is the only thing that you're interested in.
Bye,
Carl
) Why don't you simply say: "Wiggy, we've agreed on very little in our exchanges, so when we disagree, let's just agree to disagree" or "Wiggy, I'm tired of arguing back and forth on these (somewhat) trivial topics, let's give it a rest." rather than: "Wiggy, I can read your mind and you don't 'listen to' or 'hear' my viewpoint, -therefore you do not deserve responses to your questions and comments." Now, on a lighter note, I see you've come off DOH a little bit, good!...welcome over to the real world of ratios, dude! (you'll be much happier here)....... just kidding, Carl..(
) Dynamic lists... sounds complicated...I'll have to think about it for a while...It wouldn't surprise me if our negotiators might be talking about it, too. It might be familiar ground to them if the rumors about last March are true.....
(.... now, let's see, how can I, personally, get an advantage through dynamic lists?
)
)
11-02-2008, 04:47 PM
#60
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
For what it's worth, I have a buddy that is a professional mediator (family law, accidents etc.) and he says hands down that respective parties that do not come to the middle end up with a third party decision that, he says, for the majority is unacceptable to both sides. Thus, if neither DAL nor NWA are willing to move to the middle we will end up with an arbitrated agreement. So, while both sides emote how they are right in the arena of ideas we may end up with a decision that both sides hate. Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.
So, to my fellow NWAers and to DALPA, split our differences in half and call it a day.
So, to my fellow NWAers and to DALPA, split our differences in half and call it a day.
Last edited by Opus; 11-02-2008 at 04:49 PM. Reason: add on
