Heyas,

And here is the critical error in your thinking. One of the arbitrator's goals, among many other things, is to ATTEMPT to provide an award within ALPA policy. HOWEVER, since DOH is not specifically excluded in the policy, it becomes a method of integration, as long as it meets the other criteria. Just because it is not mentioned in the policy, does not mean a method is excluded.

If the arbitration panel (not you, or I, or any of the other Brainiacs here) decides that the most fair and equitable method of integration is DOH, then that's what it will be.

The slides at the arbitration showed that after the 10 year fence comes down, even by the most conservative retirement estimate, the resulting two groups will be demographically matched.

If the NWA guys wanted to be complete A-holes about the whole thing, and wanted to really swing for the fence, they could have just asked for DOH, with no fences. But the fences are there to PROTECT DAL pilot's career expectations, just as they are there to protect the NWA pilot's. When the fence comes down a 330 NWA captain will have the same LOS and relative seniority as a 767-400 captain (although it should really be paired with the 777). And fences are WHAT YOU GUYS WANTED. "Fly what you brought" was the mantra we all heard for 8 months now.

But this is all OBE. I understand that a deal has already been made, and both sides will be ****ed.

Nu

 

Nu,

If the DL guys really wanted to be a-holes, we could have proposed a list based on W-2 earnings. It's not specifically excluded from merger policy either. (Not saying we made more, just an example) But we didn't.

The fences in DL's proposal were 5 yrs for the widebody flying, if I remember correctly, and they protected us both. It seems a little convenient that the 10 yr fence comes down just when Delta's age 65 retirements start kicking in.

We all want a fair list. I quess we will be told what is "fair" on Dec. 20th. Hope we can all have Happy Holidays!!!(politically correct, Denny Crane for President!!)

Denny

 

A ten year fence does nothing but fence those aircraft. Either way, everyone moves up a number when someone retires regardless of which side that retirement comes from. The fence protects the movement in the near term that the DAL list doesnt provide. Just like your side wants protections for the aircraft you hold NOW. Are you saying you want credit for your sides aircraft, and OUR retirements? It sure sounds that way.

I dont know if there will be a fence or not but your trying to down play near term movement on the NWA side. Bottom line is both sides have "wants" and whether either side sees those "wants" has yet to be seen. I personally dont really care how fast i move up the list in 10, 20, 30 years i want the most seniority in the shortest amount of time ala the NWA retirements.

 

The obvious (and IMO funny) retort would be Mr. Reagan's quote to "tear down this wall". But as a fellow Boeing guy, my real feeling is "Mr Gorbachev, build this wall higher!"

Steve
Yes... if it ain't Boeing... I ain't going

 

Heyas Super,

And here you find where their logic falls apart. Pre-JCBA, all we heard was "bad bases, old aircraft, crappy flying" from the DAL side. You would think that REGARDLESS of the integration method, that they would say "you want 10 year fences? whoo hoo! Good deal!.

But as you point out, all of a sudden, that's not what they want. A close look at their proposal shows that it lowers the fence just as NWA retirements crank up, giving them full access to highest paying postions in NWA metal.

But it doesn't matter. The fix is in. They won't win, and neither will we.

Nu

 

Exactly, IF the fence was ever to happen, when the time came for the fence to come down EVERYONE will have moved up in overall seniority and the ONLY downfall for the DAL side would be that they couldn't bid our UNDESIRABLE positions that they didn't want in the first place. Therefore during that time the NWA side could benefit from OUR aircraft just as their side can with theirs. Our side would move up into OUR positions quicker because of the retirements but thats ok right? I mean afterall they're all already in their DESIRED positions.

The fence does NOTHING to hurt the DAL pilots except block them from our equipment that they didn't want in the first place. Overall we will ALL move up in overall seniority regardless of the fence. Its ONLY the specific positions that are fenced during the 10 years not seniority numbers. After the assumed fence, the top of the DELTA list would be mostly original DAL pilots. The fence give the NWA side time to get into the positions we wanted before the DAL guys reaped the benefits of our retirements following the tearing down of the fence.

Moot point because neither side will likely get what they want which is what makes these discussions almost pointless.

 

Oh yeah...I forgot. If I had only read ALPA merger policy, I would have seen that mention of an equipment and pay based ratio. How could I have missed that!

PS: This arbitration is not being done under ALPA merger policy. Both sides agreed to use this method which is outside ALPA merger policy.

Carl

 

Now that's funny...I don't care who ya are.

Carl

 

What do you mean Pre-JCBA? The DALPA merger team continued that mantra for the first 3 days of their presentation before the arbitrator as well.

Wonder how that worked out for 'em...Oh yes - a merger of equals.

Carl

 

[quote=NuGuy;491422]Heyas Super,

And here you find where their logic falls apart. Pre-JCBA, all we heard was "bad bases, old aircraft, crappy flying" from the DAL side. You would think that REGARDLESS of the integration method, that they would say "you want 10 year fences? whoo hoo! Good deal!.

NU,
I have the above far more from NW guys bringing it up as in your post above then from DAL guys.


They won't win, and neither will we.

I agree.

Scoop