The reason it's ignored by NALPA is (IMO) is because of pattern bargaining. For example, we were one "cycle" in front of you (pre bankruptcy) and actually made more money.

I would actually agree with your argument if NALPA had a national contract/payscale with the ATA. But, that is not the system we use.

My question was, "why isn't the 76ER included in with the 764 payscale instead of with the 757 pay?" It had nothing to do with the merger.

Someone came back and said it isn't included with the 757, the 757 is included with the 76ER and that's how I should look at it. When I looked at the payscales, as I previously posted, it seemed to be the other way around.

As for what NWA's postion I don't know what it was in regards to pay. Personally, I don't think it should matter that much considering you're both majors airlines who always tried to raise the bar (think leap frog) operating under bankruptcy contracts. I also don't think the 747 should be thought of greater than the 777 or the dc9 should be stapled because it's a little smaller. The argument of super premium and stapled dc9's is foolish. Hopefully the arbitrators are smart enough to see beyond childish antics.

Wiggy,

I'm wondering. What exactly did you do to get those magnanimous payrates that you currently enjoy?

I mean to say, if you've been around long enough, you would know that a pilot groups higher payrates over another pilot group last only as long as the next contract.

In this industry, one group piggybacks off the other. It has nothing to do with your skill and everything to do with timing.

So, if you want us to thank you for our recent payraises, fine. Thanks, you guys are the greatest.

But, if thats the case, you should return that thanks to us for negotiating the first payraises of any of the pilot groups post 9/11.

-You should thank UAL for getting that huge contract in 2000.

-You should thank us (NWA) for going on strike in 1998.

-You should thank AA for the sickout they had in 1996 or 1997. (I forget)

-You should thank every other airline out there who had the jumpseat before you guys.



With all of your talk of expectant gratitude, I think you miss the big picture.

This industry and profession should not be about expecting a "thanks" from your fellow pilots. It's should be about banding together to to move forward towards advancements and increases for everyone.

For the most part EVERY pilot group has contributed something positive to the profession that the next pilot group subsequentially built upon. There is no thanks required for doing what you are supposed to do.

The sooner you realize that, the sooner your head will be able to fit thru the cockpit door. ;)

New,

Great description you silver fingered devil. What I was trying (and failing) to get across by bringing up pattern bargaining.

As you pointed out, we were able to get a post 9/11 payraise because RA wanted labor peace in that environment and paid us to extend our contract. A good deal for us at the time and I'm sure part of the post bankruptcy discussion in the LOA 19 talks.

That was me.. and it is really a matter of semantics. I prefer, believe it or not, to consider the glass half full.

You sir.. are correct.

Steve

But but but... UAL should (and they did actually) thank DAL for the rates we got prior to that which allowed them to get that contract. Of course we then proceeded to give away a section of our contract that gave us the leverage to do just that. I'll 'splain it to ya over a beer sometime. I'll leave you and your other friends to your argument..

Ciao!
Steve

I believe any NW pilot that went to roadshows prior to the lockout in 1998 would be familiar with the "Delta Dot" payscale justification.

I find it entertaining that you ignore the main subject of his post, the fact that NW has nothing equivalent to the 59 767ERs. You further ignore his point that, because DL has 50 more widebody international aircraft (81% more) than NW, that NW will directly and absolutely benefit from that, at the expense of the DL pilots. (only 40% larger group) Your ratio of widebodies/pilots is enriched, DL's is diluted. You're welcome! (RTFP)

[quote=newKnow;497284]Wiggy,





--It is a bit unwieldy, what with the gigantic, tissue-thin ego throbbing against all points of my cranium, but a little vaseline and a push from behind and, voila'!

[quote=wiggy;499150]Wiggy,

The question still stands. What exactly did you do to get the payrates that are -in your opinion- so magnanimously being given to NWA pilots by Delta pilots. More specifically, how long have you been at Delta?

I mean to say (once again), if you've only been there are year or so, it's kind of ridiculous for you to want to claim credit and accept gratitude for something that you really had nothing to do with. The principle has nothing to do with politics or political affiliation and everything to do with respect.

For instance, in professional sports, you don't see a new player come to a championship team from the previous season, go out there and say "we" won the Super Bowl, or the World Series, or the Stanley Cup. Why? Because they have to earn the right by at least playing a one game for the team before running their mouths.

In the corporate world, you can't take credit for the companies success for the year prior if you just go there last week. You have to at least contribute something to the company and collect a pay check before being able to honestly take credit for the actions of your predecessors.

So yes, I started off my post by insinuating that unless you have been at Delta for a while, you should temper your desire to take credit for past accomplishments and squash your attempts to solicit gratitude from those who you thought benefited from them.

But then I expanded my point to include the necessity for ALL pilots and their pilot groups to be grateful to those who preceded them. I have great respect for those who came before me. I fully realize that if it were not for their actions and sacrifices that this profession would not be where it is today.

You will notice that in my post I only included events that occured within the past 10-15 years. The reasons for this are twofold; 1.) I can't take credit for any actions that NWA pilots did before I got there, and 2.) I don't know for sure who can take credit or blame for anyones gains or losses prior to then. There is nothing wrong with being a little humble and cautious when you communicate.

But, if you think that you know for certian that your pilot groups skill and knowledge is superior to others, enough to warrant gratitude from other pilot groups, maybe you need to check your ego.

If you think that when one pilot group goes in to negotiate a new agreement with their company they do it on an island with no support from the other pilot groups, maybe you are ignorant.

Finially, if you think this merger was just hatched out of thin air at the beginning of 2008 and not sometime before both companies entered bankrupcy when both pilot groups pay rates were more similar (I think NWA's was higher), maybe you are naive.

The one thing I have learned in this buisiness is that there are no absolutes. Nothing acts in a vaccum. When things go right or wrong, credit and blame can be painted with a wide brush. A true professional and leader will spread the credit and take the blame, not solicit a gratitude from others.

So, when I get a payraise I can give credit to Delta, NWA, United, American, UPS, Southwest, Fed Ex, ect. But, I also give credit to those who flew for Eastern. Should our pilots who flew for Eastern, thank you? Should our pilots who went on strike every year in the 70's thank you? It's NOT about the greatness of one pilot group. If you think so, then your bubble is about to burst.

If there is anything that you personally deserve gratitude for is it for your illustration of how not to behave and think when two pilot groups are in the process of merging. Thanks. (And, I really mean it.)

New K Now ;)

[quote=newKnow;499236]Your rantings are presumptuous, condescending, tedious, stale, and interminable. You completely ignore relevant facts, ideas, and concepts pertaining to this merger, and persist in artless, monotonous lecturing, -all thinly veiling your ultimate aim, ad hominem attack. The only real assertions I have made in the last several posts have had to do with exposing the lack of knowledge of what the term "parity" means, and to ascertain the immediate, effective and factual "cause" of the recent NW payraise. And I still say that this "cause" is NW has merged with an airline whose pilot group has superior payrates. (and has had them, on average, for over 30 years)

Wiggy,

While your 23 years at Delta are impressive, the immaturity of you mockingly accepting gratitude from Northwest pilots speaks volumes.


These are not quotes from a seasoned veteran of the airline profession, someone who is a role model for those younger pilots who follow him, someone who knows that mutual respect and uninhibited communication is an absolute necessity for safe flying, or at least they shouldn't be. Maybe that's what threw me.

So, now that we are here -- you with your 23 years at DAL and me with my 13 years at NWA -- how is it that you seem to think that your "pretentious, sarcastic and annoying" post are serving a constructive purpose? Or, do you? How is it that you think that the Northwest pilots who read a "you're welcome!" exclamation coming from a senior Delta pilot will foster any good feelings for us in entering into the New Delta Family?

I should not be in a position of "lecturing" you -my elder- on how to treat people that you will soon be working with. :D Even if it were true that you were responsible for NWA pilots payraises, it is juvenile for you to "behave" and "think" in this way. (Yes, your behavior can be observed in forums and your thoughts can be manifested in your writings.)

The last thing we need is one side or the other intermingling with the other with an air of superiority. All any of us does is fly airplanes. Nothing more and nothing less. The only reason we fly for Delta is because they hired us or bought the company we worked for. In my opinion, you didn't get us payraises any more than we got you access to "SUPER PREMIUM WIDEBODY INTERNATIONAL FLYING!" :D (This deal/merger was put together LONG before either pilot group signed off on its concessionary contract)

At any rate, it is just about time for us all to work extra hard to get along. So, why not have a few beers, think of how you dislike New K Now, then rejoice in the thought that the rest of NWA pilots are great guys/gals and are a pleasure to work with. (And just love the pay raises they just got.) :D


New K Now

I'll buy those beers.:)

See, I knew that we would eventually agree on some things.

1. We are both sarcastic condensending jerks; and

2. We both like beers.

And that you will buy them. (Just kidding. Can't help it. See point number 1)

I will buy and accept rounds of beer for and from you any time. I'm sure we would have great conversation. :)

As I said before, it's about time you and I and everyone else knock it off and have a few beers together in spirit as well as in real life. I can't wait. (No, really, I can't)

New K Now

[quote=newKnow;499236]Unless you are mangement, then all bets are off. Those guys get big bonus coin even when taking companies into chapter 11.:eek:

Scoop

So NW says that Delta pilots didn't have anything to do with getting higher pay rates for Northwest. What did Northwest pilots do to get their higher attrition rates? Why should attrition be the only thing that stays a sole possession of the merged group? Why shouldn't we keep two different contracts if you want to have two different rates of attrition? Why shouldn't NW take all of the furloughs when the 9's and freighters go away? It seems you want to share everything except your attrition. Why is that only your doing?

Dude I've watched that argument passed back in forth. The reason after 10/30/08 that parking of DC-9 and 747 freighters is irrelivant is that those airplanes are owned by DAL....they can park add aircraft at their discretion.

Red,
You are basically arguing to keep the good but spread the bad. I think this is a tough argument to sell.

Scoop

Aren't the 9's that nwa planned on parking already parked?

If Delta plans to park more 9's then that's delta's plan just like if they take 9's out of the desert.

Thanks for using logic but that will not penetrate their lop sided push for windfall seniority and a staple backer.

Stop using logic and common sense. There's no room for that with many of the pilots on this forum.

So after the SLI and DCC if anyone retires they are Delta retirements and Delta pilots benefit equally? Hmmmm....... Hoist with one's own petard, Capn.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. Any new airplane added after DCC should be shared 1:1, and any parking / furloughs should be shared 1:1 No?

Once again, then any retirement should be shared 1:1. This is our point. You want the to keep the equity of attrition all to yourselves but want to share the negative equity equally. And you have the unmitigated gall to call our proposal an "outrageous seniority grab"! Don't give that crap about "I lose 800 or 1000 numbers under DAL's proposal". I loose 4400 numbers under ours and over 5000 under yours. Both arguments are disingenuous. It's not about the number but what the number will buy. You may have a smaller number but that number will buy you twice as many wide body airplanes, 10 times as many international destinations, not to mention a big ole fat pay raise!

Your MEC was caught speeding (to say the least) and y'all's reaction sounds a lot like my 6 year old. Wasn't me, it's a mistake, the other guy did it! If your objective was to win at all costs, by any means available, then you have been well reperesented. The honest fair ones among you, hopefully are appalled.

You guys are right, the list is done. Further arguments are fruitless. Kinda like the Seahawks still complaining about that Super Bowl against the "Stealers". (Shout out to you Denny!). My only hope is this combined entity will be big and strong enough in these uncertain economic times that it smooths over and alleviates any inequities either percieved or real in the upcomming list.

Give us a reasonable seniority list and you got a deal. Go for windfall seniority and a staple, no deal.

Not really. If we go with your windfall/relative seniority then all we get is a bunch of younger delta pilots ahead of us in those positions and we will never get there.

Satchip,

You are right those "Stealers" did "steel" that Superbowl.....with a little bit of help from the black and white striped brigade.....!!!!!!!:D:D

My hopes have certainly been crushed this season!!!

Denny

NWA started the year with about 100 DC-9's. The original fleet plan had them down to 68 by year end. A fleet plan revision in late spring changed that number to 62 at year end. I called a NWA friend and he believes they have about 70 left now so there are 8 more to be parked in the next month. He has heard of no plans not to park those aircraft. On a somewhat related note Delta is bringing 4 MD-88's out of storage to replace RJ flying.

Sailing,

Anything new on the hunt for MD90s?

They have been talking about buying those MD-90's from China for almost as long at they have been talking about a 100 seat replacement aircraft at the mainline. At the rate the talks seem to be going those MD-90's will be nothing but rust by the time we get them! I am not holding my breath but we are supposed to still be talking with the Chinese.

As is typical for you Sailing, you missed the point of Eric's post. The "they" that you refer to is now Delta. While we were still Northwest, we did NOT furlough, or go beyond the scheduled DC-9 retirements, or get rid of the 747-200's; as the genius' like you kept predicting. Now that we're Delta, any decisions are Delta's.

You need to wise up ace. I know you think we're the worst bunch since the airlines began, but your constant bashing of NWA is just boring and sadly predictable. Especially since NWA is no more. Try to turn the friggin page already.

Carl

No as usual Carl, you missed the point. If any aircraft retirements are Delta's then any pilot retirements are also Delta's and we all share equally.

Carl, Can you show anything in the post you quoted where I bashed NWA. I am simply putting out facts. I have a lot of friends at NWA and I respect them and NW airlines. I have not once posted that we saved NWA or anything else. I agree its a merger of equals from a financial standpoint. I have simply posted what are known facts about the fleet and fleet plan at NW. I have also posted negative things about the Delta fleet plan including the post you referenced where I mention that the MD-90's are may not be coming. You can find the same info I post here via google. In fact when I posted last spring that the plan was to be down to 62 nines at the end of the year I believe you stated it would never happen. Reality is sometimes hard to except but its still reality. I also never posted the 200's would be gone this year. The plan as of a month ago however had them all gone in the next two years. 50 dollar a barrel oil may change that but as off 10 days ago they put out at a line check meeting that anchorage would be closed. That does not bode well for the 200's. They also put out all 400's would be parked within 4 years. Yesterday a friend spoke with someone on the 4th floor who is working on the 747 issue and he did say that if fuel stays below 80.00 a barrel that time frame could slip a few years. I really hope they stay for 20 years since they provide high end jobs that will benefit all of us. The nines however are leaving. They are approaching 40 years old. The required aging aircraft inspections that will be coming up on the airframes are very expensive and new noise standards can't be met with the current hush kits. As I have pointed out many times here the key question is can we recapture that flying for the mainline. Sadly so far at NWA that has not happened. You will have lost almost 100 DC=9's at year end without any replacement aircraft in the last 4 years. Sadly I fear that we wont see a replacement at the new combined airline either. Delta management has been promising us a new 100 seat aircraft since we retired Delta's DC=9's in 1991. So far its been 17 years of promises and not one airframe.

You got your exodus of retirements and now you are going for ours.

I can't believe you guys are still arguing about this crap. The SLI will be what it will be now, and not one word posted here will influence the panel's decision. What is happening however, is that a acrimonious situation is being developed between the two pilot groups. While the regulars here understand the back and forth, comments are taken out of context when posted to other forums and those readers react differently.

Don't know about you guys, but I can think of a lot of things to do rather than argue ad nauseum about the same thing.

I guess you talked to the wrong NWA pilot then. A DC-9 that had just been pulled out of the desert was spotted at NWA's heavy maintenance facility the other day. According to the mechanics, it was going through some refurbishment so it could be sent back to the line. Seems like a strange thing to do if you're going to turn right around and repark it along with 8 more to get down to the magical 62 number. The original fleet plan from many months ago when oil was approaching $150/barrel had the DC-9 fleet down to 62 by the end of the year. Plans change. Especially when oil gets down to where it is now. Just like how the original plan for the new merged carrier next summer had close to 360 route/aircraft swaps. Now, the plan, as of 2 days ago calls for 6 (Former NWA) aircraft to change routes by next summer. 4 747-400s and 2 A-330s. From 360 changes down to only 6. Quite a change from the original plan wouldn't you say?

Couldn't agree with you more, but many of the DAL usual suspects here don't. They can't talk about the weather without tying it to DC-9 parking, or NWA pilots trying to screw the arbitrators and DAL pilots and.........

Make note of the following:

NWA guys on this board are not bashing DAL guys. Even though you guys trashed us in the first 3 days of arbitration, we did NOT respond in kind at the arbitration, and we're NOT doing it now.

The vast majority of my posts are defending the latest negative BS about the former NWA posted by some DAL pilot purporting to show "facts." Here's a deal, stop all the former NWA bashing and that will cut down on the posts here. If you don't have something positive to say, just shut up. It's not like we all don't have enough negativity going on right now.

Carl

Here's what you don't get:

First of all, your facts are wrong - see PropNWA post above.

Secondly, even IF your facts were right, it ain't no way to make friends. If your girlfriend was butt ugly and flat chested, would you appreciate me telling you those "facts?" Or would you want to do battle with me because I voiced an opinion that you don't agree with? Would your anger be assuaged if I said: "Look dude, I was simply putting out facts."

If you think walking around spouting "facts" as you see them is a way to make friends, you've got a lot to learn.

Carl

Carl, if you are going to reside in my head, I will have to charge rent. :D