Green Book Guys
 

I have heard a few former Red book guys say DOH with fences was a fair way to go, but if any former green book guys thinks so I have not heard them say it. I know a few of you NW guys have identiifed yourself as former Red Book, but who among the usual forum guys is a former green book and what do you guys think? You guys didn't "fence" the green book guys off this forum - or did you? :)
It does not seem fair that some that a guy with 15 years in Republic at the time of the NW merger could be held off equipment that was bid on by a guy who was a new hire at NW during the merger.


Scoop

Scoop,

Well, it is not exactly like that. The senior Green book guys actually faired very well. Remember the argument before Roberts(named after the arbitraitor who awarded it.) from the red side was what they brought to the table which at the time was predominantly widebody flying with 727 being their smallest airplane. Republic brought 9s/727/ and 6 757 (easy number to remember as that was how the red book guys taught apu egt limitation on the 747) Sorry, I digress. Anyway, the republic guys argued DOH and didn't want ratios and used the domestic feed they brought as the basis for their argument. Roberts looked at both sides and said, ok I give both sides what they want. To the green book guys they got their date of hire and to the red book guys they got their access to the widebody flying. The twenty year fence was long and costly and I think that is why RA, seeing it firsthand, isn't desirous for us to have fences on the new SLI.

I hope, scoop, that both sides can meet in the middle and we don't have two decades of bickering/resentment or disharmony.

I think most of the green-book guys are too old for this "new-fangled internets thingy"

I spoke with one green book pilot. He was very concerned about fences and did not want them. He said the fences had screwed him for 20 years. He was willing to take a ratio without fences since it would still get him a widebody international seat to retire off instead of his current narrow body domestic seat. He said a 10 year fence would keep him where he is until he retires because of what the red book pilots did to him. Please no comments on his views of the last merger. Just reporting what he feels about this one.

Am I reading this right that he can't get a widebody at NWA and the only way he could get one is at Delta? That's why he doesn't want a fence.

His logic is flawed unless he is assuming that there will be no base closures to redeploy equipment to new bases and routes. At a minimum I expect the SEA A330 base to close and probably MSP A330. Not sure about the 747-400 moving, but if it does, the new bid will be mostly Green Book guys.

Opus,
Good info - thanks. I am torn about the whole fence thing. I guess coming up with a fair solution without fences would be ideal, easier said then done. I understand NW guys wanting fences to protect retirements but if thats the case, to be fair, the fences should last until all pre-merger pilots are retired, not exactly a great solution. Or maybe we can rent some time on a Cray Supercomputer and it can calculate some sort of dynamic seniority list that can factor everything and spit out a list - not too hopeful on this one either.
Oh well if all else fails go with the Newman solution - "Cut the bike in half." :)

Scoop

The fences at NWA are over and have been for a couple years. They can bid whatever they want, especially with all the widebody CA awards that are being awarded.fwiw

Scoop,

I don't think we are going to see fences awarded. I think RA has stated that he would prefer an integrated list sans fences but we'll see. I suggested to our negotiators we go 1:1 (which would help the senior DAL guys) and then towards the bottom go 7:5 with some dynamics.

I know guys on both sides (or at least as emoted on this web board) are holding on to each side position but I do hope there is middle ground that can be found and we won't be living in a resentful environment for the forseeable future.

On another note, I know a lot our guys that come from boeing curse the airbus so I wonder how Dal guys are going to want to bid the 330?

There has been very limited movement to the widebodies since the fence came down. There are a huge number of Green book pilots still on the narrow bodies. With the change from 2 Captains on over 12 flights to 1 Captain it hurt movement even more.

If there are people junior to him in those seats (red book)and people senior to him waiting to bid them(green or red book) he may never get there at nwa.

It sounds like he doesn't want fences because he knows where ever he ends up on the SLI he could at least hold the 767 international.

Yeah... maybe.. but that isn't uber premium flying though... :p

I love my mini van

well then you guy's shouldn't really care, right...;)

Actually I do care Eric, but before I make my statement, I am going to preface this with the fact that there is NOTHING I can do to prevent or influence anything that is going on in the hearings and/or negotiations. That being said: I do care since NWA doesn't have anything that is comparable to the 767ER in their fleet; which means that whether we go DOH or relative seniority or alphabetically or by height, narrow body NWA captains will be able to hold widebody international seats whereas they could not before. We can argue till the cows come home about the similarities/differences between the 747-777 and the 330 -767-400. But the fact is that NWA has nothing in the same weight/speed/seat makeup that compares to the 767ER. And frankly all that garbage about "super-premium flying" is laughable at best.. sad at worst. I find it amusing, hence my uber premium comment. It has no substance. :rolleyes:

Tsquare,

But now that the adjective Kings are on our team think of the possibilities:

We can have Ricardo Montalban (if hes dead we will use holograms) talking about “The rich Corinthian leather, power adjustable seats” available to Pilots who fly the Uber-superior DAL 767ER on trans continental globe trotting luxurious 6 day European vacations (OK Work).

We have MR T “Pitying the fool” who doesn’t fly on the super duper extra special DAL 777’s when he jets off to luxurious destinations spanning various sub-Saharan Africa garden spots.

Welcome aboard Adjective Kings! :)

Scoop

"Super Premium" - The gift that keeps on giving.

I find it entertaining that you are quick to dispatch the differences. It is obvious why you do so and I don't blame you, it just makes your discussions very transparent and weak.

I'm glad you see that. I would expect nothing less from a NW pilot since this whole argument started, the NW side has been nothing less than transparent and weak!;)

True, both groups are self serving.

Once the arbitrators announce their decision we'll see who was more transparent and weak. I'd be willing to bet there will not be a staple in their decision. any takers?

I'll be surprised if the final list differs significantly from relative seniority.

I agree. There won't be a "super premium" windfall with only 200 DAL pilots out of the top 1600, nor the bottom 400 being NWA.

And I bet it's negotiated.

tsquare, I was just being sarcastic. I would care too if I was a delta pilot.

Why is the 76ER included with the 757 and not the 764?

eric

Eric,

The 767ER is included with the 757 because when the airline wanted to operate both types ALPA said, OK if you bring the 757 up to the 767's pay.

My pay category is 76B, there is no 75B. When you see a Delta 757, think 767 because it pays 767.

The 787 is most similar to a 767ER in capacity, isn't it? So NWA was heading that direction.

NWA's way of determining a pay rate was based on lift, range, and speed.

I understand that you don't have a 75B payscale but I guess I think the argument is a little stronger that the 767ER was actually brought closer to the 757 pay than the other way around.

When compared to other delta aircraft the 76ER is $21/$14 (CA/FO) less than the 764 (widebody)and only $6/$4 more than the 737NG (narrow body).

United does it the same as delta but Continental and American both have them separate. NWA does have the 787 on order but they put it's pay on the widebody side and not closer to the 757.

The 757 and 767 at Delta used to have different payrates. In fact there were different payrates for the 757, 767-200, 767-300 and 767-300ER. In the 01 contract ALPA proposal was for the same percentage differences in the pay rates. The company made a counter offer to bring all the aircraft to the same rate with the 767-300ER getting the same percentage increase as all the other aircraft on the property and the 757, 767-200, 76-300 getting slightly higher percentage increases. There has been much discussion about this and why the company offered but it would have been very hard for ALPA to turn down and request lower payrates on those aircraft.

It's not. (unless of course you are talking to capncrunch). The 757 is included with the 76ER. It's a matter of perspective. If the 757 is included with the 76ER, it brings the NWA 757s up to DAL status of the aircraft. If the 76ER is included with the 757, it downgrades the ER to fit the lame argument of super duper uber ultra gigantico premium flying that capncrunch would have you buy into. I don't care what he thinks really... I know that he and his fellow narrowbody guys are (regardless of methodology) going to be able to hold widebody flying that they cannot now hold.

The 764 is a different animal avionics wise. Different glass and cockpit setup. It is actually more similar to the 777.

There you go again, trying to clean the 767s image and puff its chest so it can hang with the big boys. Clearly the 747 is a much bigger aircraft than the 767. Although "Super Premium" may offend your sensibilities, its clear and obvious that there needs to be a class distinction. Call it "Even Wider Widebody than the 767" I don't care. None the less, the distinction needs to be made.

If the 747 could take a dump, it would be bigger than the 767.

PS
I'm already in a widebody and it pays better than the 757 FO.

That explains how the 757 got tied in with those rates but it still seems bizarre as to why it wouldn't be included with the 764.

Thanks

The reason for the question had nothing to do with the merger/SLI or who can or cannot hold widebody. I see and understand both sides of that argument.

I was just wondering why it isn't included with the 764. When I saw the difference in pay between the 764, 76ER/757 and the 737NG I was surprised to see the 756 closer to the 737 than the 764.

The 764 is different than the 76ER but it is also the same type rating with just a differences class while the 777 is a different type.

Now that's funny!!

Reminds me of that Saturday Night Live skit when Joe Piscopo did his Frank Sinatra impression. He would say to Billy Crystal in the thickest Sinatra accent possible: "I've got STOOLS bigger than you!"

Carl

Yes but when the poop out numbers the pooper 3:1 you better watch where you step.

You're welcome for the pay raise!;)

Hmmmm, I didn't realize you signed our checks........:rolleyes:

The distinction HAS been made. The 747 pays more. It is a bigger airplane. duuuh. You guys seem to want to dismiss the 767 as if it were a MD88... long range, but insignificant wrt to international operations. (No insult intended to MadDog drivers) Fine. You win. And.... you're right Cap'n... you would never want to fly the mini-van. The destinations are lame, the aircraft sucks, JFK is a quagmire. Make ya a deal: You stay off the 767, and I'll NEVER bid the 747.


But you can't forget either that if the 767 took a dump, it would be bigger than a DC9.

Oh, and one last thing.... how's that 787 thing coming along? Still think it's gonna fly anytime soon? And when/if it ever does, will you consider it a widebody? Just curious...

You're welcome for your pay raises under LOA 19. You couldn't have done it without us. ;)

Carl

Maybe had your guys shown up origionally without being on vacation, or too busy, we could have all got more. Either way, you're welcome for the big(ger) pay raise!;)

How big of a head do you have to have to think that you or your group have any responsibility for anyone else's raise. No wonder you guys need those hats.

"Size extra large please, so I can hide my extra big head." :rolleyes:

And no wonder you guys have 3 separate books and dozens of arbitrations. jeez!

I thought it was NALPA's position that pay doesn't matter in constructing a seniority list. So why are we even having this discussion? From a purely selfish perspective it would be great if the SLI were determined by premerger pay rates Is that really a discussion you want to have, because all the NWA A320s/319s and DC-9s pay less than MD-88 rates and would therefore be classified as small narrow bodied aircraft and all DAL 777s pay super duper premium wide bodied rates and would be ranked ahead of the 747-400. Nevermind the fact that DAL 757s have the same effective pay rate as a NWA A330.

Help me. What does any of that have to do with the arrogance of thinking you are personally responsible for someone else getting a raise?