Jetblue and AA merger noise
 

My wife is a flight attendant with AA, she's hearing "noises" about merger talks between the two carriers, what say you ?:confused:

I don't think so, Jetblue gets feed, and we get feed. Why buy the cows when your getting the milk for free.....;)

AA

Disclaimer, my opinion is valid for 10 seconds, as this is a dynamic business and everything is fluid.:eek:

What would they use for money? We have a $1.4 Billion cash in the bank LH owns 19% thats a $1 Billion....we own about half our aircraft...we have a market cap of $5 Billion....seriously?

and aa is 3.5 B so?

I agree with you, I'm only the messenger....:)

This is one of the silliest things I've heard. Jetblue and AA are on opposite ends of the spectrum. They are two totally different types of operations. Those two merging would be like a merger bewtween Marriott and Motel 6.

The most likely scenario for a future merger would be AA and US.

No I here you...plus I'm not sure it would get by DOT...New York ...both have major bases BOS Major Operations LAX/LGB major operations for both.

I mean 75% of this is a huge overlap...not to mention the Caribbean.

I'm just say in...more than likely JetBlue will get drug into One World.

You guys are missing the point. The real question: what will Arpey and the BOD gain from this merger?:p

You beat me to it. Mergers are about ego and personal wealth.

They funny thing about this statement is that each of the two different pilot groups here will assume that you are considering THEIR airline to be the Marriott.:D

The analogy was meant to reflect the total difference in companies, not the quality of their service. However, if you think about it, on Jetblue you pay less usually than you would on AA, but you get way more. Same with Motel 6. You pay less, but get free breakfast and free Internet. At Marriot you would pay more and still not get free Internet and breakfast.

AA pilots prefer the Nordstrom-Kmart analogy.

Maybe AA can buy AS and dismantle it like they did with AirCal, Reno, TWA......... oh never mind.

Damn, you mean flying coast to coast with nothing to eat but a packet of Blue Chips and a cola doesn't mean I am flying the "Marriott"?..Just when I thought I was in my dream job...

ps. is a weak cup of coffee with powdered creamer and a stale donuts really a free breakfast :D

Anyone who thinks AA is the equivalent of Nordstrom needs to immediately submit to a drug test.

AA pilots in general, or ONE Ed White.. Keep posting, I just put on my I hate stupid people t-shirt.

AA

direct relationship?

If you are comparing JetBlue service to the First Class cabin then I understand the comparison. But if you compare JetBlue's coach class and customer service to AA's coach JetBlue wins hands down. Sorry, but AA coach service is terrible in comparison.

If this thing did happen, one can expect two things;1 all of the s80s will be parked with in a year 2 expect another 1000+ guys on the street

We've heard the same rumblings at Eagle about AA and Jetblue. While aa and b6 do have a lot of overlap keep in mind that might be exactly what AA wants.

Buying B6 ensures that AA can continue to compete in the NYC market against DAL and the proposed ual/cal.

As far as the overlap is concerned, AA desperately needs 100 aircraft. What better way to gain them than remove the overlapped routes and free up the E-190s for the routes that AA needs them for. AA gets 100 seat aircraft and crews to fly them on the (relatively) cheap. Bonus: no union mergers to hang the deal up!

just speculation...

Of course it was only one pilot who made the analogy public, but did you put on the I hate stupid people shirt then?

Could AMR operate B6 separately or does the AA scope force a full integration?

You still have to deal with SLI. And Allegheny/Mohawk would apply. If you think a Union merger would be ugly, that would pale in comparison.

I did, then took it off because I am at work, however sitting in the terminal watching people, I want to put it on again:D

AA

Actually Jetblue doesn't have a seniority list that is recognized by the new law since they don't have a union and consequently don't have a contract seniority list. If any company buys or merges Jetblue that has union represented pilots then Jetblue will in all likelihood be stapled.

Of course DOH would be a staple in AA's case anyway since JetBlue is so junior.

I was joking about just that in another thread. I had said that "APA was recognizing the professionalism and dedication of the Jetblue pilots and agreeing to merge seniority lists via Date of Hire".

Up to three pages now based on the above statement? Wow.

In general, I don't pay attention to what is said aft of the cockpit door when it comes to what the company is doing in "corporate strategy".....

Heck, I barely listen to what's said forward of the cockpit door on the subject....

As a former TWA guy retiring with 38 years of service with TWA/AA, my DOH was senior to EVERY AA pilot.... but I retired # 3750 on the merged list. (and I was one of the lucky ones).

Every APA member should be hanging their head in shame on what they did to their "brothers" from TWA.

I missed the age 60/65 thing by several months, thankfully.:)

Yep, you were lucky you RETIRED from a viable airline instead of ending up unemployed. You're welcome.

Every TWA pilot should be hanging their head in shame for allowing their MEC to waive their seniority rights and accepting APA's proposal (which was crafted along the lines of the TWA/OZ deal - even though OZ got "DOH", a bunch of them ended up stapled due to TWA having not hired for six years, but you'll never hear that from a TWA pilot.)

Get a (retired) life.

To be honest I would think you would be thrilled with how things turned out for you. You were able to maintain a job at a above average pay rate with a viable carrier and will have gained some additional retirement benefits. With the condition of TWA at the time of the merger I would think you would consider that a huge win!! Congratulations on having your career saved and being able to enjoy the retirement perks you will get from AMR.

Actually you are wrong, the law does apply to JetBlue, the catch is somebody would have to negotiate the implementation of the law on behalf of the pilots should a merger occur. That somebody would be the "Co
pany" and the Board of Directors. The real question is, do the pilots of JetBlue trust the company enough to negotiate on thier behalf, even if it meant a merger deal failing on behalf of those negotiations. Do you trust today's executives to look out for you best interests and invest millions on ensuring you get a fair SLI. That is the question!

I think you're really going out on a limb here. There is no reason he should be "thrilled" about his fate. Nor does his original post suggest he fails to acknowledge he personally was fortunate.

Your post fails to acknowledge the manner in which the vast majority of the TWA guys were treated, as you're too busy trying to prop up the ridiculous notion that any of this was a "huge win" for at least some of them. At the time AMR purchased TWA, it was not clear that their future was any bleaker than, say, UsAirways. While there is a good chance that they would eventually have liquidated in light of events such as 9/11, SARS, and the economic mess we're in, this was not foreseeable at the time. As such, it cannot serve as the rationale for what happened during the merger. Still, some AMR pilots will remain convinced TWA was headed for the brink, and that is their prerogative.

Regardless, the TWA people had a long difficult game of "airline career roulette". They were not very fortunate, but they were always graceful about it. There exists a legitimate difference of opinion between the AMR and TWA pilots about that merger, but there is no legitimate argument for a Delta pilot to tell a TWA pilot he should be "thrilled".

Instead, Delta pilots should be grateful for what we have, relative the TWA pilots, and pray we don't ever get to walk in their shoes.

“insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers’ employees, provisions
shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner,
including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the
carriers and representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree."


For other unionized employees who are combining with nonunion employees or employees of
another union, the provisions of their collective bargaining agreement related to integration or
successor clauses apply only if they do not contradict the “fair and equitable” standard and
arbitration procedures of Allegheny-Mohawk. The role airline management would have in
integration discussions under these circumstances is unclear."

So basically JetBlue pilots are screwed.

"Some" AMR pilots? Bro, I got news for you - 99% or so of the airline industry knew of TWA's plight.

I guess you don't read this board, FI.com, and our union website... While there have been many rational folks, there have been an equal amount of people who are forever convinced that they got the shaft and love to convince the world of their plight. And I am the first one who acknowledges that many got the shaft, but likewise there are many, like our retired friend above, who got saved and retired from it, and who continue to try and convince everyone they got screwed. No sympathy for those folks, sorry. They are no different from the Easties.

Of course this whole thread and argument will be meaningless when AA and BA get anti-trust immunity. Then Lufthansa and Virgin will merge and JetBlue and Virgin America will end up being the domestic/carribean feed for Lufthansa and Virgin.

The applicable point is that AA pilots knew what was going to happen. That is, the company was buying a dead airline and was going to end up with very few active routes, almost no practical aircraft, but a bunch of employees diluting the AA seniority list. That's exactly what happened, unfortunately, but predictably. There is almost nothing of hard asset value left from TWA except a dying hub kept open only from a contractural requirement.

I was told point-blank by a senior TWA captain just prior to the announcement that TWA was a dead duck without AA asset purchase.

I thought the TWA deal was an incredibly stupid move by Carty and Arpey at the time, especially when the economy was starting to tank and business flying was declining steeply. Carty and Arpey were gambling with AA pilots' careers and rolled snake-eyes with the TWA asset acquisition. It's as simple as that.

1) OK, I will stipulate to that: 99% of AMR pilots certainly thought TWA was a useless, rotting, dying shell, mimicking an airline.

2) I was a TWA pilot. I left before the merger was announced, but not because I thought TWA was dying. I didn't think it was a better choice than Delta, obviously, but I would have left a number of airlines for Delta, some of which still exist.

3) The retired friend you quote didn't ask for sympathy, and suggested he was one of the lucky ones. He stated the same thing you stated: many got the shaft.

4) The TWA piltos are nothing like the Easties, IMHO. But that's not important, since I don't want to try to win a debate that cannot be won. There is, obviously a legitimate difference of opionions between the TWA and AMR pilots. My point was that sailing was poking his nose in there, attributing things to the original poster that were not said, and giving a lesson on gratitude, when we're not in a position to do that.

5) I am sympathetic to my fellow TWA co-workers, and I think we should just coss our fingers and pucker up our back ends nice and tight, as we pray that we may not come to know their fate. Meanwhile, if we Delta piltos can't help them retroactively with their careers, at least we can save them our lectures. That sounds like a reasonable enough attitude, don't you think?

I commend anyone in this industry that knows what is going to happen before it does. I guess all AA pilots had this knowledge, and one TWA Captain was confirmed to be in on it. I can tell you that I worked with many TWA crews that, naively I guess, thought their future was not already set in stone.

There is a very good question in your post, when you ask what Arpey and Carty had in mind with what you call an "asset" acquisition. Strangely enough, I believe it was marketed in a different way to the public and employees. Whatever the true intentions were, these guys ended up brining together two groups for which there was not enough work, for little noticeable financial gain to AMR.

We all have wet dreams about taking out a competitor, getting the routes and aircraft, but not the bodies. On the flip side of each such hope, someone loses. I'm not really interested in trying to do forensic work of what happened there. I'm only suggesting that telling one of the survivors of this bloodbath (one that affected both sides) that he must understand he just experienced a "huge win" is not useful.

This was obvious to the most casual observer, given AA's history with acquisitions. You didn't need a crystal ball. Just needed to read the economic news, know about Carty's ego, AA dismal history with acquisitions, TWA's fleet makeup, practically worthless route authority at the time. I was in the Chicago AA ops when the deal was announced. The TV news showed the cheers and jubilation among the TWA employees in St Louis. I looked around the AA ops room and saw nothing but worried looks among AA employees. A captain standing next to me looked at the TV and said "Oh sh*t, not again." That pretty much summed it up. TWA employees knew this was their last shot, and AA employees knew they were about to be screwed, again.

And now there is essentially NOTHING left of hard TWA assets, except a zombie hub in St Louis.